Wax...another religeous issue like oil and fish dangling from the back of Testarossas. Generally, do NOT wax a freshly painted car for a month or so. Has to do with gasses escaping, wax would hinder gasses escaping and do nasty stuff to it. So far, all the body shops and detailers I have talked to recommend one and the same thing: A hard, carnuba based wax. They also recommend to use waxes w/o polishing compounds (i.e. grit) very sparingly like once a year at most to remove small scratched. Note that there are several "grades" of polishes as there are several grades of "coarsness" of sandpaper. I used to use Rain Dance, which I still think is pretty good, though it is rumored to be too abrasive. Tried NuFinish, and was not too impressed. Now I use Meguire's professional line, which is ok. Supposedly the "best" wax stuff is Zymoel (with the e = " for the o) if you don't mind paying about 100$ for a couple of bottles. Note also that more and more cars are clear coated, and they may react differently to some of these waxes/polishes. Undercoating??? The stuff vw uses is pretty good. It's a tough plastic film ca 5mm thick. Not sure if you can get it after market. Several tar based products are available though. From: BBS::UUCP%"uunet!usc.edu!marciano%VitaM6.uucp%uunet.UU.NET" 16-AUG-1990 16:49:19.36 To: info-vw%ames.arc.nasa.gov%uunet.uucp CC: Subj: Re: waxing From usc.edu!marciano%VitaM6.uucp%uunet.UU.NET Thu Aug 16 18:49:45 1990 remote from uunet Received: from uunet by mdcbbs.com (DECUS UUCP ///1.2a/2.5/); Thu, 16 Aug 90 16:49:35 PDT Received: from usc.edu by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with SMTP id AA28368; Thu, 16 Aug 90 18:49:45 -0400 Received: from lipari.usc.edu by usc.edu (5.59/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA07566; Thu, 16 Aug 90 15:49:43 PDT Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by lipari.usc.edu (3.2/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA21668; Thu, 16 Aug 90 15:49:38 PDT Received: from uunet.UU.NET by ames.arc.nasa.gov (5.64/1.2); Thu, 16 Aug 90 15:30:14 -0700 Received: from VitaM6.UUCP by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with UUCP id AA20959; Thu, 16 Aug 90 18:30:07 -0400 Message-Id: <9008162230.AA20959@uunet.uu.net> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 90 15:18:16 PDT From: uunet!usc.edu!marciano%VitaM6.uucp%uunet.UU.NET (Marciano Pitargue) To: info-vw%ames.arc.nasa.gov%uunet.uucp Subject: Re: waxing >From: Douglas Bender writes: > I just bought a 1991 VW Passat and I was wondering about the pros > and cons of waxing. The manual says to wax the car to protect the > natural finish. I was speaking to a friend of mine who has a 82 > Scirroco and his parents have a 88 Scirocco, and they were both > told not to wax their cars. > I waxed my Passat with a "New and Improved...Turtle Wax with > Teflon" last weekend......aside from the wax I slopped on the > moulding, I'm pleased with the results. Does anyone know how to get > the leftover wax off the moulding ? I've tried rubbing it with a > wash mitt, but it just won't go away. I figure a strong brush > should do the trick. > Has anyone else been warned against waxing their VW's? What are the > pros and cons of waxing? What's a good wax etc? well, i can certainly comment. i had a friend run a Steve's Detailing and i used to watch him work. and he told me some secrets of the trade. "wax, restores the oils lost in the paint." it also fills in the scratches making a smooth finish which will come out after repeated washes, esp using a chamois. polisher's "cuts" the paint to take off the oxidation. bad polish jobs leave swirls in the paint. polishing does not take muscle but finesse. one should never lock a trigger on a polisher. "don't ever "lay" on a polisher." hand is best since there is more control. most new cars today have a clear coat finish, kinda like clear fingernail polish. my opinion (Steve's Detailing philosophy) is that a car should be polished and waxed once a month. even on clear coats. clear coat is just paint without pigments (BTW, ferrari uses a pink primer which gives the unique ferrari red. well that's what i heard.) so it also needs the oils replenished. also, clear coat scratches are easy to see, so wax fills in quite nicely. "polishing actually moves paint" use a new toothbrush to take wax out of moulding and such. it works great. Steve's takes anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour "walking the car" to get rid of excess wax. it really makes a difference. "tape off corners with masking tape so you don't burn the paint while polishing" brand of wax they use is Meguire's Professional Waxes and Polishers. they have many different numbers depending on application and need. use a wax that at least has carnuba in it. you guess why. yup restores some of the oils. they cut armor all 50/50 with water for interior. full strength on the tires. they use acid on some types of wheels. but most makes can't take this because of the alloys used. don't know what brand of degreaser they use on the engine, but i use simple green. i basically take a day to detail my car. i love doing it. it's really relaxing and my car comes out real good. and you can really tell the difference when going down the highway since the car looks "wet". it's a great feeling. now about the auri commercials on tv. anyone try it? i'm kinda hesitant on any product that says it lasts a year. what, if you don't drive it? Steve's is located in Costa Mesa, San Franciso, and other places. if you are near one, go and ask questions. they are very professional and they take their work seriously. a great place to see exotics, since they demand high prices, and it seems only rich people can non-chalantly give them the desired fee. sometimes i goto detail shops and ask them questions, like order in which polish, wax, armor all, simple green, vacuum, etc. and if it's strange, i leave. otherwise, i talk. you can really figure out the bone heads by asking questions. don't ever leave your car at a detail shop unless you are completely satisfied with their competancy. swirls are very hard to get out right. any comments are greatly appreciated. i know opinions differ, but what works for me might not for another. From: BBS::UUCP%"uunet!usc.edu!wc%Morgan.COM" 17-AUG-1990 09:05:01.94 To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov CC: Subj: Waning and Waxing From usc.edu!wc%s5.uucp%uunet.UU.NET Fri Aug 17 11:34:22 1990 remote from uunet Received: from uunet by mdcbbs.com (DECUS UUCP ///1.2a/2.5/); Fri, 17 Aug 90 09:05:12 PDT Received: from usc.edu by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with SMTP id AA13814; Fri, 17 Aug 90 11:34:22 -0400 Received: from lipari.usc.edu by usc.edu (5.59/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA06678; Fri, 17 Aug 90 08:34:19 PDT Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by lipari.usc.edu (3.2/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA22476; Fri, 17 Aug 90 08:34:16 PDT Received: from uunet.UU.NET by ames.arc.nasa.gov (5.64/1.2); Fri, 17 Aug 90 08:16:34 -0700 Received: from s5.UUCP by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with UUCP id AA08969; Fri, 17 Aug 90 11:16:30 -0400 Received: by Morgan.COM id AA05692; Fri, 17 Aug 90 09:16:32 EDT Date: Fri, 17 Aug 90 09:16:32 EDT Message-Id: <9008171316.AA05692@Morgan.COM> To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov Subject: Waning and Waxing From: uunet!usc.edu!wc%Morgan.COM (Bill Castellano) Well, I've got some thoughts for you VW guys.... I have used many kinds of waxes since I got my first car. Of course my first car had an old, crummy paint job. Needless to say, I spent endless days trying to rub some shime into that car. I used Kitten Wax, which I got from a body shop to bring some life back to the '71 pontiac. Haven't seen that stuff in a while. Worked pretty well, though. On my VW, I have used Regular Simoniz (yellow can), TFP ( a miracle wax), and Zymol. Regular Simoniz is a good carnauba wax. It puts the oils back into the paint. It has to be taken off 'wet', however, and takes a little elbow grease. If your car is very clean, this works well. There is no abrasive. Carnauba wax can hide some clearcoat scratches. Use lots of rags, because you want to get the oils off of the surface and you don't need a dirty rag putting them back on. TFP is a wonder wax (with Teflon) that I got from a friend of my father's. It works well, but is not wax. It restores almost any condition of paint, has no abrasives, and takes off almost anything on the paint that shouldn't be there (how does it know). If I can't get bugs/tar/water spots/bird doo/ old wax/plastic scratches off of my car, I use this stuff. It even makes a snap of removing cosmoline. My father uses it on all of his cars. It works well, but it can streak if you aren't careful on a dark car. But, just add water to a rag, and it will rub out. Richard Welty (well that's richard, acually) recommended Zymol to me. I used their HD cleanse (non-abrasive) to thoroughly clean my car, and that worked well. It took off the oxidation and made the car slightly darker, much more red. That stuff takes off all previous wax and leaves a 'naked' car finish. Works very well, smells great, and costs $11. I used 1/2 a bottle on the GTI. I bought the Zymol wax for the car too, ($26) and really liked it. It goes onto the finish sooo well, and you take it off wet. It is full of oils and and makes the car darker once again. Use lots and lots of clean towels. Make sure to get all of the oils off. This wax leaves a fantastic wet glow to the car finish. Washing the car a week later is a joke. All of the dirt falls off. (and runs in streaks from the window moldings) Be careful not to let the wax/oils streak. You don't have to use much, it goes a long way. The container will last me a while. And, the stuff smells great! I recommend it. They have a special version for black/very dark cars, called carbon. Any Zymol dealer has a small book that gives tips on using their product, and washing the car, too. Pick it up and read it. They recommend adding a teaspoon of salad oil to your wash solution. Haven't tried that yet. I also heard it was OK to use Zymol on a new car finish (less than 3 months old) but don't quote me.... Good luck.... WARNING>>> I am changing jobs, so direct email inquiries are at your own risk!! Bill wc@morgan.com From: BBS::UUCP%"uunet!usc.edu!ti%cindy.Altos.COM" 17-AUG-1990 13:50:56.16 To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov CC: Subj: Re: Waning and Waxing From usc.edu!ti%cindy.Altos.COM Fri Aug 17 15:41:28 1990 remote from uunet Received: from uunet by mdcbbs.com (DECUS UUCP ///1.2a/2.5/); Fri, 17 Aug 90 13:50:57 PDT Received: from usc.edu by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with SMTP id AA12783; Fri, 17 Aug 90 15:41:28 -0400 Received: from lipari.usc.edu by usc.edu (5.59/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA15212; Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:41:04 PDT Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by lipari.usc.edu (3.2/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA23304; Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:40:56 PDT Received: by ames.arc.nasa.gov (5.64/1.2); Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:09:48 -0700 Received: by claris.com (4.1/SMI-3.2) id AA05971; Fri, 17 Aug 90 11:35:06 PDT Received: by apple.com (5.61/25-eef) id AA18533; Fri, 17 Aug 90 10:25:40 -0700 for Received: by altos.Altos.COM (5.52/smail2.5) id AA01358; Fri, 17 Aug 90 10:01:41 PDT Received: by cindy.Altos.COM (Sendmail 5.52/Altos-1.0) id AA13738; Fri, 17 Aug 90 10:15:51 PDT Date: Fri, 17 Aug 90 10:15:51 PDT From: uunet!usc.edu!ti%cindy.Altos.COM (Ti Kan) Message-Id: <9008171715.AA13738@cindy.Altos.COM> To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Waning and Waxing I use a product called Klasse on my Audis. Klasse is not wax, but you apply it like wax. There are two steps to the Klasse treatment, the first step is with the milky wax-like substance from the red container (forgot what they call it), apply it and then wipe off just like wax. This first treatment removes oxidizes paint and coats the car with a layer of high-gloss shine. The second step is with the clear liquid from the metal container, and again treat the painted surface and wipe off. This second layer provides an even greater shine, and provides a longer lasting coating. I typically treat the cars only once a year (the mild California weather and my religious use of car cover helps), and now my 10-year old Audi 4000 still looks 90% showroom new. Klasse is pretty hard to find and is very expensive ($30+ for the two) But since I only need to do it once a year, the two containers of Klasse has lasted more than 5 years and I still have plenty left. I suppose that's not such a bad deal. -Ti Ti Kan \\\ vorsprung durch technik! \\\ Internet: ti@altos.com /// \\\ UUCP: ...!{sun|sco|pyramid|amdahl|uunet}!altos!ti ////////\ From: BBS::UUCP%"uunet!cadence!voder!nsc!nsc10.nsc.com!doudna" 17-AUG-1990 13:51:45.64 To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov, jan@dev7d.mdcbbs.com CC: Subj: RE: To Wax or Not to Wax ?????? From cadence!voder!nsc!nsc10.nsc.com!doudna Fri Aug 17 16:01:44 1990 remote from uunet Received: from uunet by mdcbbs.com (DECUS UUCP ///1.2a/2.5/); Fri, 17 Aug 90 13:51:48 PDT Received: from cadence.UUCP by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with UUCP id AA16463; Fri, 17 Aug 90 16:01:44 -0400 Received: by cadence.noble (5.61/3.14) id AA12348; Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:32:06 -0700 Received: from nsc.UUCP by voder.nsc.com (5.61/1.34) with UUCP id AA09845 for uunet!mdcbbs!dev7d.mdcbbs.com!jan; Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:08:11 -0700 Received: from nsc10.nsc.com by nsc.nsc.com (5.61/1.34) with SMTP id AA24247 for jan; Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:08:50 -0700 Received: by nsc10.nsc.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA11471; Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:08:55 PDT Date: Fri, 17 Aug 90 12:08:55 PDT From: uunet!cadence!voder!nsc!nsc10.nsc.com!doudna (David Doudna) Message-Id: <9008171908.AA11471@nsc10.nsc.com> To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov, jan@dev7d.mdcbbs.com Subject: RE: To Wax or Not to Wax ?????? I said: >> [Richard Welty] >> considers Rain Dance to be evil. Jan sez: >Interesting. How did he come to this conclusion? I've been very >happy with it for quite some time, though in all honesty I use >Meguire's mostly since I moved to CA. Without getting into the chemistry involved, he basically argued that Rain Dance used harsh cleaners and abrasive to obtain a quick, easy shine. He claimed it is detrimental to the life time of the paint job, particularly if used often. I use it at most, twice a year. Contact richard for more details. His email address should be obtainable from a quick perusal of rec.autos/rec.autos.tech notesfiles. Perhaps someone interested in this subject (not me :-) could post a summary to info-vw... >What wax does Richard Welty use? EXPENSIVE wax. I don't recall the brand name, but I know it was of the non-cleaning/non-abrasive variety. The company provided separate products which "deep cleaned" the paint. This stuff is too much money and too much trouble for *me* to mess with. For those with very expensive paint jobs, it may be worth it. Again, contact richard for more details. -David Doudna "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be waxed." doudna@nsc.nsc.com X-NEWS: dev7d.mdcbbs.com rec.autos: 15983 Relay-Version: M&E Bulletin Board System 10/13/90 VAX/VMS V5.3; site mdcbbs.com Path: mdcbbs.com!uunet!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!hplabs!hpfcso!hpfcdc!rjs Newsgroups: rec.autos Subject: Re: Best car WAX? Recommendations sought. Message-ID: <9460098@hpfcdc.HP.COM> From: rjs@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Bob Schneider) Date: 25 Jun 91 16:08:09 GMT References: <1991Jun21.115516.1@dev7d.mdcbbs.com> Organization: HP Fort Collins, Co. Lines: 34 jan@dev7d.mdcbbs.com writes: > WHAT IS THE "HOT TICKET" WAX TO USE ON A NEW CAR? First, most auto manufacturers/auto body shops recommend 6 months to let the paint cure before waxing it. Zymol claims (in its literature) that it is the only wax recommended for new cars. Zymol is pricy. It's about $30 for a small container. Most folks need to start with their starter kit (~$50) which contains a bottle of heavy duty cleaner (to be used twice a year), a bottle of car wash, and a can of wax (creame for light colored cars, carbon for darker cars). Fortunately, considering the price of the wax, it comes with intelligent packaging. There is a rubber O-ring that seals the top so that the wax won't dry out. Zymol also has a couple of other limited production waxes that are very expensive (just in case you didn't think that $30 was expensive for car wax!). Zymol's claim to fame is that ALL of their products are non-abrasive. They seem to like to put lots of exotic items in their products as well. Their cream wax contains bananna oil, coconut oil, carnuba wax, etc. It smells a lot like suntan lotion. Zymol wax is also applied differently than most waxes. After applying it, you must remove it BEFORE it dries! I've seen a couple of cars that were "Zymoled" and looked pretty good. I decided that in spite of their claim that Zymol is "ok" for new cars, that I would wait 6 months from the date of manufacture before I waxed my car. I'll be using Zymol around the weekend of the 4th. I'll report back with my results upon completion. Bob Schneider rjs%hpfcla@hplabs.HP.COM Article 21574 of rec.autos.vw: Relay-Version: ANU News - V6.1 08/24/93 VAX/VMS V1.5; site cc.usu.edu Path: cc.usu.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!cs.uoregon.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!news Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc,rec.autos.vw,rec.autos.marketplace Subject: Re: Looking for car-polishing advice/wisdom (for 86 VW Scirocco 16V) Message-ID: From: mike_d_phillips%80@hp6400.desk.hp.com (mike phillips) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 05:29:39 GMT Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) References: <371v6tINN1e3@life.ai.mit.edu> Organization: ICD, THA Group X-Newsreader: WinVN version 0.80 Lines: 209 Xref: cc.usu.edu rec.autos.misc:20077 rec.autos.vw:21574 rec.autos.marketplace:6847 In article <371v6tINN1e3@life.ai.mit.edu>, gillett@corn-pops.ai.mit.edu (Walter E. Gillett) says: > >Hi, Folks > I've got a VW Scirocco that I'm quite fond of. However, I don't seem to be >any good at polishing/waxing it! I have a feeling that this is a bit of an art >somewhat like making bread: the best way to learn how to do it right is by >watching someone who knows what they're doing! But since I don't have that >luxury... I'll tell you what I've been doing and see if you can help me! > > From what I've read on the net Meguiar's and Mother's are both good stuff. >I tried to get a set of Meguiar's but couldn't find it all so ended up with >Mother's pre-wax cleaner, Meguiar's glaze and Meguiar's paste wax. I also got >a Wen 11" random-orbit polisher. I kind of "do the obvious thing" with the >polisher and the pre-wax cleaner but there's still a lot of swirl scratches. >I then put the glaze on and take it off a little at a time like the bottle says >to do. If I leave it on for much longer than about a minute or two then it's >almost impossible to remove without seeing the "rag strokes" that put it on. >I was unsuccessful using the polisher with either the glaze or paste wax so I >applied and removed these by hand. The polisher was unable to remove the >excess from the car's surface with the recommended pressure (i.e. just the >weight of the polisher). > > That's about it. When I'm finished the car looks OK but even that doesn't >last very long. Right now (about 2 months after the whole procedure) it looks >VERY swirly, dull, and scratched. :-( So what should I do? I'm considering >calling it quits and trying to find a good detailer in the area (Waltham - a >suburb of Boston) who'll do it all for me. But I'd rather be able to do this >myself. I'm afraid that someone else with a power buffer may make a mess that >can only be fixed by repainting! > Thanks for any much-needed HELP that you can offer! > -Joe > >p.s. Does anyone know what Meguiar's customer service phone# is? >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Joe Shapiro (NOT Walter Gillett, though I'm using his account!) >Please send replies to: joe@ConSolve.COM Hi Joe, If you want to see if it is salvagable, find some Meguiar's #2 Hi-Tech Cleaner, go to auto parts stores (or call them) that sell automotive paints to your local autobody shops, (their called PBE, Paint, Body & Equip.) if they don't stock it their idiots, but if they dont they can order you a bottle. Shake the bottle very well, use a piece of terry cloth or a terry cloth wax application pad. Pour some product on to the surface, the hood is as good as any place to check out, then move the product around so it is evenly spread onto the area your going to clean. This is not rubbing it in spreading it around, just spread it around so its not in one pile where you poured it out. Then gently but aggressively, Polish the area with the #2 in strainght lines the direction of the length of the car, use the product liberally, but not wastefully Polish the #2 back and forth working the product into the pores of the paint. Do this for about 5 to 10 minutes, then wipe it off completely. Does it look better ??? not perfect or like it was waxed, but cleaner, and overall better ???, This is just the cleaning process remember. If it looks better, then polishing and waxing will improve it to what should be acceptable standards, if not, it could be that paint is actually the problem. It is possible to have bad paint, sometimes when paint is abused, or neglected it will die on its own, not common, but it does happen. Important points = When cleaning paint, the idea is to remove the dead and contaminated paint from the surface and to loosen and emulsify the dirt and contaminants from the pores in the paint. (consumer products previously applied can be considered contaminants). This process can be looked at much like cleaning hands that are really dirty, like after changing out a starter motor in an old chevy truck. Your hands are very dirty, there is black greasy dirty yuk ON your hands, and their is this same black greasky dirty yuk IN the pores of you hand. While I'm here let me digress and explain now the difference between Compounds and Cleaners. So you hands are dirty and you want to clean them. You have 2 options one option will represent "Compounds" the other option will represent "Cleaners". The compound option means grabing a bar of "Lava" soap. IT is very effective in cleaning very greasy dirty hands because there are tiny "ABRASIVES" in the soap. these tiny abrasives are Pumice Rock particles. The soap, being soap helps to break down and emulsify the grease and dirt, while the Abrasives "ABRADE" at your skin removing the dirt by basically removing skin. The result is your hands get clean. The cleaner option means grabbing a handfull of "Goop" Lanolin hand cleaner. (I hope everybody here knows what both "Lava" and "Goop" soaps are) Goop or lanolin products like goop are very effective at breaking down and emulsifying the grease and dirt on your hands and in the pores of your skin. It does this all through gentle chemical action, No Abrasive, no or less skin removal. Compounds and Cleaners are much like this, one of the main differences between your skin and paint however, is, your hands if washed with "lava" wont look scratched up like your paint will. The paint, when compounded will be totally scratched up, it may be clean now but at what cost ??? reduced film build, dull, dry, ( most all compounds use cheap solvents as their "Carrying Agent") and now you must find a way to either remove the scratches or fill them in. While Paint cleaned with a non-abrasive cleaner, will not look all scratched up (or as scratched up, depending upon the person, the paint and the application product) their will be more film build, and in the case of Meguiar's, the paint wont be dried out, (Meguiar's used the same oils found in #7 as their "Carrying Agent" instead of solvents) to be continued...... Mike back again, So let me see if I can tie this all together. Joe is not happy with his finish, the end results of how a finish will look depends on how well the finish was "Cleaned" at the initial first step. If the paint is thouroughly cleaned, ie,.. dead paint removed, surface defects removed, and all dirt and contaminants removed for the surface and the pores of the paint, the polishing process will restore the depth, by loading the pores full of feeder oils, as well as help to finish removing the finer surface defects and or filling them in, Then the wax will seal up the pores and lock this oils in, The results should be a good to great looking finish, relative to the potential of the paint to start with. If however the paint is not "Cleaned" very well, or very thouroughly, all the polishing will do is darken or make clear, dirty paint. Then the waxing process will seal in the oil, the dirt, the defects and the contaminants. So what Joe needs is to at minimum, do a test spot, and clean the paint. See if you can clean to your approval a single spot (say about 1' by 1') on any of the top flat surfaces, after cleaning, polish and wax. Then see what it looks like, if you can make a spot look good, you can dupicate the process over the whole car. If you cant make a spot look good, then quit or seek out the help of someone who can Machine clean a spot with the Meguiar's W-1000 foam pad, and the Number #2 Cleaner. There is a world of difference between what your hand can do and what a rotary buffer can do when using Meguiar's products. I know this can sound like more than you may want to take on, I am just trying to cover all the bases. Cleaning is however the most crucial part of making a taddy finish look good again. As for as seeking out a Detailer or a Detail shop, Most detailer are self-taught which isn't a good thing. Most detailers and detail shops use cheap chemicals because their cheap, use abrasives because their cheap and fast, and use wool pads instead of the Meguiar's foam pads, because their Much Much cheaper, and last much much longer. (Wool pads cause Buffer Swirl, each and every fiber in the wool pad put in its very own scracth, the only proven way to remove buffer swir is to re-do the buff job the right way by using Meguiar's foam pads and non-abrasive cleaners) If you or anybody reading this decides to use the services of a Detailer, ask them to show you "How they will perform the process" Ask them to show you what machines, what pads, what chemicals ect.. Whenever I have done any polishing work for anybody, I am always more than happy to show them how their paint works, how the system and products I will be using work and invite them to watch if they so desire. Sometimes they do. I have also done whole cars at car shows for everyone to watch, I am never embarressed to show what I know. I did notice while working for Meguiar's and making "Sales Calls" on Detailers and Detail Shops, that they usually dont want you to see what they do. Enough said. Also, most equipment rental shops and most PBE stores "RENT" rotary for app. $15.00 to $20.00 for a weekend. If you decide to take the plunge, gather up the necessary chemicals, pads and buffer, then experiment on something that is not as important as you project, (like your girlfriends or wifes car) until you have the hang of it and then proceed to your own project. Also you can call Meguiar's and ask them when the next "Training Seminar" will be in your area. I did hundreds of these things, showing people how to correctly machine buff using the foam pads and chemicals, (it is an art form) Tell them Mike Phillips sent you their way, they'll love me for it. Ha Ha Ha..... Hope this helps someone, maybe Joe, It has been such a long article I forgot what it was about...................... Still going..................... Mike... Article 21950 of rec.autos.vw: Relay-Version: ANU News - V6.1 08/24/93 VAX/VMS V1.5; site cc.usu.edu Path: cc.usu.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cu-dialup-0414.cit.cornell.edu!jay4 Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc,rec.autos.vw,rec.autos.marketplace Subject: Re: Looking for car-polishing advice/wisdom (for 86 VW Scirocco 16V) Message-ID: <37k7p2$9ac@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> From: Jesse Yorio Date: 13 Oct 1994 21:10:58 GMT Sender: jay4@cornell.edu (Verified) References: <371v6tINN1e3@life.ai.mit.edu> <94280.070438MXB171@psuvm.psu.edu> Distribution: world Organization: N/A NNTP-Posting-Host: cu-dialup-0414.cit.cornell.edu X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d24 X-XXMessage-ID: X-XXDate: Thu, 13 Oct 94 22:13:43 GMT Lines: 10 Xref: cc.usu.edu rec.autos.misc:20858 rec.autos.vw:21950 rec.autos.marketplace:7143 In article <371v6tINN1e3@life.ai.mit.edu> Walter E. Gillett, gillett@corn-pops.ai.mit.edu writes: >Joe Shapiro (NOT Walter Gillett, though I'm using his account!) I have a '94 BMW, and had an '84 that looked brand-new. First stop using a swirling motion - go in lines. Second use these three waxes in this order - 1) Liquid Lusture, only avialble at an autoshow or my mail - cleans and protects, 2) Blue Coral Autofom - acts as a suface sealant, 3) Gilptone Carunauba Wax (not Teflon) - to get a deep shine. That process had kept my car scratchless in six months in NYC - so it should work well, and you could brush your teeth in the reflection. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Detailing the right way. Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:58:33 EDT From: Nephurus@aol.com Hey Jan, I was reading your detailing department and dissagreed with several things. I have my own professional detailing company for the past 7 years. I will just give you guys my professional opinion from my experience, and what I learned from certain other professionals that are from 3M, PPG, Meguires, and etc... Alot of my work deals with restoring old cars for dealers, and fixing problems with freshly painted cars (such as runs, dirt, dry spots, and so on) I deal closely with paint manufacturers, so they tell me what the right way to prolong beauty. Wax & Polish -----> polish and wax twice a year. Once in spring with a paste heavyduty caranuba wax, if desired, wax in between with a liquid wax. Again in the fall to protect from the coming winter salt or snow brushes people tend to use, and the occasional snow shovel. Washing -------> It's very important to wash your vehicle once a week using wax safe soap. The less dirty the car is when you wash it, the less dirt you have to tackle. Also don't be cheap, use the double recommended dose of soap. Soap is what gets the dirt out, and also keeps it from scratching your paint. Wash first the top half of your car, rinse, then wash the bottom half. The top half is much cleaner that the bottom, so your soap stays cleaner, and you don't use the dirt from the bottom to scratch the cleaner top. Rims ------> The more often you wash them, the easier it is to clean the next time. Compound -------> should be handled only by someone that is experienced in the field. Compound needs to be used by a machine, polished by a machine ( cost of mine, $300.00 ) My company uses 3M foam pads ( about $10.00 ea.) 3M polish and compound ( about $25-30.00 ea quart, thats with my company discount) People have come to me with their do-it-yourself jobs, some I just turned away. The burned paint, cuts, and damage was so extreme, they needed a new paint job. So beware. True detailing isn't being able to just washing a car, vaccumming, and armor-alling your tires and dash. That's called a car wash. True detailing is being able to restore any paint with reasonable damage to look like new, and cleaning carpets that look hopeless, and even if you don't wash your car for a month or two after it was detailed, when you do, it should still look really great. Oh, I do have a 87' GLI 16v, with real Recarro silver and black interior, and even though it has a custom paint job and some engine work, you can tell it's a VW Jetta. Hope I was able to help some missunderstanding in the field of detailing. Thanks, /// Nephurus