YA Authors Cafe: Tonight is a no-host panel chat with YA authors Catherine Atkins, Libba Bray, A.M.Jenkins, and Mary E. Pearson. After introductions they will kick off the discussion with some thoughts on why they choose particular viewpoints and how it affects their story, and then the audience is invited to jump in. First intros . . .

YA Authors Cafe: Libba Bray is the author of the New York Times bestselling novel, A Great and Terrible Beauty, and the forthcoming companion novel, Rebel Angels (Fall 2005). She lives in Brooklyn with her husband and son.

YA Authors Cafe: Amanda Jenkins writes under the name A.M. Jenkins She is the author of the YA novels BREAKING BOXES, DAMAGE, OUT OF ORDER, and the forthcoming BEATING HEART: A GHOST STORY, with four more novels under contract.

YA Authors Cafe: Catherine Atkins is a native Californian. Her young adult novels are WHEN JEFF COMES HOME and ALT ED. Her first published short story will appear in Cicada Magazine this spring.

YA Authors Cafe: Mary E. Pearson is another California native. Her third young adult novel, A ROOM ON LORELEI STREET, will be out this June, and a fourth, with a working title SLIVER, is under contract. Her other YA novels are SCRIBBLER OF DREAMS and DAVID v GOD.

YA Authors Cafe: Libba's and Cathy's recent novels are in first person point of view, Amanda's book Damage is in second, and Mary's latest is in third person POV. Did you choose these viewpoints/voices or did they choose you? Take it away!

Amanda: Mine chose me.

Libba Bray: Ditto.

Catherine Atkins: Um, well, so far first person is what I've used though I'm seriously considering third.

Amanda: I fought second person, but it wrestled me to the ground, and won.

MaryP: Same here. For this latest book it came to me in third.

Catherine Atkins: Mary, how about you?

Libba Bray: I'm glad, Amanda. I found it really worked for me.

kimmar: Did they start out from 1st draft in the same POV they ended up with?

Catherine Atkins: I tend to like reading first person best because I want to identify strongly with the character--so far first seems to do that for me.

Amanda: Damage started in second, and ended up in second, but I spent a lot of time trying to make it *not* be second.

Amanda: Cathy, why are you thinking about using third now?

MaryP: Why is that, Amanda?

Libba Bray: I started in first person, past tense. But it just felt dead on the page to me. I was writing a scene that was supposed to convey terror and found myself writing in first person present. And it was that eureka moment for me.

Catherine Atkins: Amanda, I want to stretch viewpoints a bit and maybe depict characters I don't understand as well. First can be limiting because you have to believable *be* that person.

Amanda: MaryP, I felt that second would be hard to read and that no teenager would want to even try.

Amanda: Cathy, do you think it will give you a more comfortable distance as a writer?

MaryP: I think tense has so much to do with voice too, though I heard Stephen King say something to the effect that he thought it was a trend or fashionable.

Catherine Atkins: I think it might--I did a short story last year that doesn't have a home yet--but the viewpoint was omniscient and I found that incredibly freeing.

Amanda: I get mixed up about omniscient. It's head-hopping, right?

Catherine Atkins: Mary, I always used to do first person past and now it's always first person present. I like to read that, too.

Libba Bray: Yeah, I'd like to try a little omniscience myself. :-)

colato: Have you tried to write a story with multiple point of views?

MaryP: Me too! Waving my hand! ; )

Catherine Atkins: Omniscient--head-hopping, yeah. I find I'm liking multi-character stuff lately, in films esp. Like Paul Thomas Anderson--Magnolia.

Amanda: Colato, I have tried writing from multiple povs, but not in third person.

Libba Bray: Oooh, PTAnderson, yes! I would love to try multiple POVs. Might be a good match for my multiple personalities.

Amanda: My multi-view seems to be in first. Mostly. Except in drafts, where I'll try anything once.

Catherine Atkins: Mary, what POV are you using in your Work in Progress?

NancyWerlin: I think it's easier to think of third-omniscient not as head-hopping, but as author-knows-everything.

Libba Bray: good point, Nancy

Amanda: But I already know everything about my characters, Nancy. So that doesn't help me.

Amanda: Maybe as reader-knows-everything?

MelissaW.: How about as a movie camera then?

MaryP: I am using first person present in my WIP because that is how I first heard her.

Catherine Atkins: I loved Fair Game, Erika Tamar, so many dif views of same event.

tea_ta: I don't know if it's right for me to hop in here, but if anyone ever conscious of POV trends when they write? Like what POV the more popular books are in?

NancyWerlin: It does if you as author decide it's okay to let the reader know everything, too. But when you write in first or tight third, you only let the reader know what the MC knows.

Amanda: Fair Game--all in third, right? It's been a while. Terrific books.

Brent Hartinger: I'm kind of partial to third person subjective, where the "narrator" knows everything the main character knows, but not everything-everything. Not everything the author knows.

MaryP: (yes tea_ta, no host tonight)

Amanda: tea, NO!!!

Alex Flinn: I think the omniscient viewpoint is a little author-intrusive, like Charles Dicketns or Lemony Snicket

Catherine Atkins: I think so, on Fair Game--loved how *authentic* each voice sounded. The author disappeared. Like in Nashville or..some other multi-view stuff I've seen lately.

Amanda: I don't like the reader knowing everything, except when I want him/her to know.

Brent Hartinger: Jinx, Nancy, more of less

Kathleen Jeffrie Johnson: chocolate coffee, yes!

colato: First person is my friend

Mindy: Have you ever written a draft in first person present, and then decided it should be first person past?

Brent Hartinger: more OR less

MaryP: tea_ta, I heard a while back that first person was the "authentic" voice for YA. I don't agree with that but I do think a lot of YA is in first.

Libba Bray: I'm blissfully unaware of trends when I write.

Amanda: What does authentic mean? Everybody else is an imposter?

LindaJoySingleton: I prefer first person, although mixed it up with first and third in my REGENERATION books

Catherine Atkins: Mindy, I've done the opposite--first present seems more immediate somehow. Adds excitement. Or so I've felt in the past.

NancyWerlin: Yes, Alex. I was listening to Middlemarch on tape recently (George Eliot) and just marveling.

MaryP: yes, that's what I thought, Amanda.

Brent Hartinger: But don't these things work in trends? Amanda, didn't DAMAGE get a lot of attention because it had been a while since a book had done 2nd person so well?

Amanda: Gosh this is going fast. Mindy, I switch povs in drafts constantly.

Catherine Atkins: I think anything can be overdone--I'm almost hungry to read some third person after so much first.

kimmar: I wish I could say pov organically appears for me from the get go. I find I struggle

colato: authentic? language, traditions, customs

Brent Hartinger: I hear you, Catherine. I want to WRITE it too, after writing first person again and again.

Amanda: Brent, no--Damage came on the heels of Freewill. I'd been working on the book for years, but oh well.

Alex Flinn: Yes, Middlemarch! That was actually the *example* I'd seen pointed to of the perfect omniscient viewpoint "Mary was the sort of girl you see every day on the street" type of author intrusion.

tea_ta: it's interesting that Damage was written in 2nd POV. I’ve been looking for one in 2nd for ages.

Amanda: tea, there's not much out there in second, for sure.

Catherine Atkins: I think that is a problem sometimes--you have to be so accurate in first or just sound...well, not there. Hmm. Still pondering this.

tea_ta: I love that POV

AJF: I normally write in first person because that's how I hear my mcs

Brent Hartinger: Amanda, did someone accuse you of "mimicing" FW? That would be a hoot.

Libba Bray: Brent, I also hear you. I keep saying I'm going to branch out and write something in third person, but I keep coming back to first. Maybe it's a "cheat" but it seems to be my way "in" to the narrative.

tea_ta: I just wrote a short story in that POV

Amanda: An interesting thing relating to what Cathy was saying earlier...

NancyWerlin: ""Mary was the sort of girl " -- yes! I long to be able to write stuff like that confidently, but sometimes I fear it has gone with the Victorians and we can't do it... we are a solipsistic society.

Amanda: ..second person is the perfect way to get close yet remove yourself from your character...

tea_ta: exactly

Amanda: ..to talk about what is unbearable to talk about.

Libba Bray: Yes, I agree. A safe harbor.

tea_ta: "you" if relateable and yet so far away

Darice: I think the authorial statements "Mary was the sort of girl..." distract the reader from sinking into the story.

MaryP: Amanda, I have a quote for you:David Morrell, in Lessons from a Lifetime of Writing says of second person viewpoint: "In psychiatric terms, people who refer to themselves as "you" are dissociating from themselves."

Catherine Atkins: Interesting. A remove--I think you're saying, Amanda. Multi view can be that way, too. Shift the focus when it's too intense.

Amanda: Brent, no. But I got a feeling of "been there, done that" by the time it came out. Some reviewers *loved* freewill.

MaryP: Did that have something to do with your decision to write in second?

Martha: In Damage the POV helped remove Austin from himself---BTW I read the thing in all the POVs---Amanda tries out lots

Amanda: Second is what people use in therapy...

Libba Bray: Darice, I disagree. I think Kate DiCamillo did this to great effect in Despereaux.

Amanda: ...when they're getting close to an unpleasant truth...

Alex Flinn: In your book, Amanda, and I think more so in FREEWILL (I was in the minority that loved FREEWILL), 2nd person was perfect to show the character's distance from and feeling of unreality of the world.

Brent Hartinger: I wish critics would realize that published books are written AT LEAST two years before publication, usually much longer for first novels...But I guess they see the world from their first person POV, no pun intended

kimmar: I agree about Despereaux Libba, and the form felt quite comforting to me

Amanda: like, "I loved my mom, but you know, when somebody treats you that badly, you just have to kill her.

NancyWerlin: It's a different kind of story, Darice, when you are not allowed to identify strongly with one MC, but instead must see the larger picture. You don't sink into a main character, but you CAN sink into the story.

MaryP: So, can you have "voice" when you aren't writing in first? What else contributes to voice besides the character's own voice?

Brent Hartinger: Okay, I intended the pun ;-)

Darice: I haven't yet read Desperaux... *puts it on the list* Maybe it's just that the last story that used the technique seemed to swoop in and out.

CynthiaLS: Intellectually, we're not sure how valid it is, but on an emotional level, I'm often debating gender-authenticity in voice with my author husband/critique partner.

Darice: er, the last story that I read that used the technique.

Amanda: FL Block has voice galore, but doesn't she write in third?

Catherine Atkins: How about POV as a way to express what you hate or disagree with? Quote: Ernest Hemingway: "If he wrote it, he could get rid of it. He had gotten rid of many things by writing them."

NancyWerlin: Yes, Block uses third.

Libba Bray: Cyn, can you say a little more about gender authenticity?

Catherine Atkins: I felt that way somewhat in Alt Ed--giving voice to stuff that was hard to hear. That usually isn't said directly to the outcast.

Amanda: I do feel that third makes me feel a little removed from the characters. Writing it, I mean.

MaryP: Yes, when I wrote Lorelei Street I needed a little of that distance.

Libba Bray: So Amanda, how do you get around it? Or do you? I'm looking for a way to write in third.

Amanda: So, does anybody make a conscious, technique-driven choice to write in a certain voice?

Catherine Atkins: Sometimes it's good to be removed, I think--not so tied into defending a viewpoint or "selling" something--speaking for myself.

LindaJoySingleton: I did a book in third that felt too distant, so switched back to first

CynthiaLS: Basically, when Greg and I read one another--especially if one of us is writing cross gender--it's not unusual to hear one of us saying something like "that's off for boy voice" or "I don't believe *she* would say that. At the same time, we don't like to think of ourselves as so gender specific. But maybe it's more on our minds because teens are so much forming their identities and gender is a big part of that mix.

tea_ta: forgive me if this has been asked already, but do most of you let your character decide the voice? or the overall story?

MaryP: But it is a very close limited third so I think it often feels like first.

kimmar: Alex, in Breathing Underwater, was the letter writing there from the first draft? I found that style shift quite effective

Catherine Atkins: Tea, I think for me the story defines the voice.

Amanda: My characters have an emotional journey they have to take. I have to choose the best way to present that journey.

Libba Bray: Cyn's answer makes me think of something else. Do you find it difficult to find your voice when you are writing a gender not your own?

MaryP: teata, I think for me, the character decides. It is how I "hear" it.

Catherine Atkins: Libba, yes--struggling with that.

Amanda: I don't. I do wonder if men can get away with writing women's voices more than women getting away with men's.

thingschange: how writing different race rather than gender???

NancyWerlin: Lib and Cyn, I find I often use first person for male MCs -- to get closer -- and third person for females --to get some distance. Not always, but often.

Alex Flinn: kimmar -- depends how you define "1st draft." I originally wrote BREATHING UNDERAWATER in a shifting viewpoint. The journal was there from the first draft that was in Nick's viewpoint. I wanted the voice of the journal to sound different from his present voice.

AJF: Libba, I didn't have a problem writing in a different gender and finding the voice however I do think my voice is stronger if I'm writing a female character

Amanda: Race is a whole different culture, Patrick. Don't you agree?

kimmar: it works SO well Alex. And as a trauma therapist I think your book is especially important

NancyWerlin: Patrick, I will say frankly that I wouldn't dare write an MC who's of a different race than mine. The critics are so nasty.

Libba Bray: My current WIP has a very male mc and I'm finding it strangely liberating.

thingschange: YIKES (Patrick runs to keyboard and begins deleting ...)

CynthiaLS: I won't publish my first male POV stories until this year (short stories), but I honestly think that's as much about courage as anything else. I started with characters closer to myself and have been steadily branching out.

NancyWerlin: Well, you're braver than me!

thingschange: <or foolhardy>

Brent Hartinger: Yes, I'm scared of race too. I just finished writing a deaf character, and even after three deaf readers, I'm terrified that someone will be upset.

Catherine Atkins: Cyn and everyone, do you have to feel a strong emotional connection to write first person? Can you be somewhat detached?

MaryP: "things change" Patrick. Maybe it won't be a problem (sorry I couldn't resist)

Amanda: Cathy, I think it depends on the ms, the character, and my mood at the time. It can change from day to day.

tea_ta: I feel, like theater and acting, that I am that person, I have that emotional attachment

NancyWerlin: Cathy, I always have to be emotionally involved, no matter the style.

Amanda: That's interesting, tea.

AJF: Catherine, don't you find you have to feel a strong emotional connection to write in third as well?

Libba Bray: In first person, I find it hard to detach. I'm always looking for ways to get under the skin.

CynthiaLS: I've published books for younger readers in third, but I am going first with my YA. Could be product of growing up with Judy Blume. But in any case, I said some fairly alarming and out of character things in the past year that were clearly the voice of my current protagonist.

Amanda: tea, I often feel that good writing means being one character, and then switching to other characters in your head, to round out the ms.

Brent Hartinger: Alex, I remember you talking about how much you were attached to Nick, even if you disliked him too. I can't imagine not "knowing" your main character, and sympathizing on some level. You know their reasons!

tea_ta: Amanda, I think that's why I’m partial to 1st POV

MelissaW.: tea_ta, I feel that way writing third, but my WIP is third and I feel like an observer but not me, weirdly.

AJF: Shouldn't the only difference between third and first only be the fact that she replaces I?

MaryP: So I have a question for everyone--When you were a teen did you have a preference for POV? And now as an adult? As a teen I remember preferring third because I felt first was untrustworthy. I wanted to believe the narrator. But as an adult I don't care anymore.

Catherine Atkins: AJF, yes, but I find I can use the distance in third to see through other's eyes. For myself, I'm wondering if first person limits what I'm trying to do.

Amanda: I like third, Melissa, because I feel like I can be more in love with my MC without getting too into his head.

Amanda: AJF, NO!!!

AJF: If you think about it, you still have to be in the mcs head. You really can't see anything he doesn't see

Alex Flinn: Correction, Brent. I never dislike my viewpoint characters. They are me. I might have been annoyed with Nick (as I am occasionally annoyed with myself) but I always love my main characters.

LindaJoySingleton: I never cared if the book was first or third, just whether the story & character grabbed me

CynthiaLS: I like those limits of first, using them to dramatic effect.

Martha: My 13 yr. old says he doesn't like a character saying "I"---he prefers 3rd

NancyWerlin: No, AJF. See previous comments about Middlemarch and third omniscient. Third can give incredible flexibility -- or be used as you say, like third only with different pronouns.

Brent Hartinger: Mary, that's it exactly. I wanted first as a teen, because I wanted it to be "real." Now, like you, I can appreciate third.

Amanda: Nancy and AJF, even in third, there's a different feel to it.

Amanda: When I tried third with Damage, you could detach and feel pity for Austin, the MC.

Catherine Atkins: Mary, I love reading first present best when it works for me--then and now.

kimmar: do you all think it's possible to write a story then shift the pov several times during revision to find what fits?

tea_ta: Amanda, I think that's something that I’m still working on, making the other characters as emotionally amped as the mc

Libba Bray: Okay, I've been trying to think back a million years. I don't think POV mattered much to me. But a certain "confessional" feeling, a la Bell Jar or Catcher in the Rye really hooked me.

Amanda: With second, there's not any detachment. I didn't like third. It was like typing with oven mitts on, trying to tell the story that way.

Brent Hartinger: Yes, that's right, Alex. I really liked when you told me that, because I'd never written such a "dark" character. It's a bold statement which a lot people will misunderstand...lol

Catherine Atkins: kimmar, sure. I think that happens a lot--POV shifts.

AJF: I'm not talking third omniscient, but third limited (I could be getting them mixed up) but you can still only see what your mc sees

AJF: and know what your mc knows

Amanda: tea, if you think of them as actors, and you imagine playing their part in each scene, you can round them out nicely.

Alex Flinn: But can the first person be more fun *because* of the limitations it presents? I remember really loving WUTHERING HEIGHTS as a teen because of the way she used the viewpoint.

MelissaW.: AJF, I'm used to writing in first, but my WIP is in close third and it gives a totally different perspective on the story, how you feel about the MC. You get to see him against his surroundings more than you would through his eyes, which is an important aspect of this particular story. That's one difference.

Amanda: I love first. You don't have to be fair at all.

kimmar: lol Catherine, not only have I shifted my pov, but I've shifted my ms AND my form, now writing freeverse from a different character's perspective

CynthiaLS: Agree with Alex. Her new book really explores this.

MaryP: Yes, that is what I LOVE about writing in third--more of an opportunity to build a world and atmosphere I think.

Martha: Hey Amanda when was the last time you used an oven mitt? ha!

Catherine Atkins: Cool, kimmar--I think experimentation and time can bring so much out of a ms.

Amanda: I got one out of the dog's mouth the other day. He was chewing on it. Does that count?

tea_ta: thanks Amanda

Libba Bray: LOL, Amanda.

MelissaW.: Ha ha ha!

kimmar: we'll see Catherine :)

MaryP: Melissa, was it a conscious decision to try third in your current wip or did it just happen?

Catherine Atkins: Another quote--from wanting to *be* the character--Graham Swift: "There is another reason I use first person. I want to be in the pub myself." This is how I used to think of it--how can I create a book w/o imagining myself the mc?

kimmar: Libba, I was so impressed with how you were able to build such a complete world with Beauty in first person

MaryP: hmm, interesting, Cathy.

MelissaW.: Mary, no, it just happened. I'm so rarely conscious--of anything. It's only much later, sometimes, I can figure out "why".

Catherine Atkins: I'm not sure I agree with it now, Mary.

MaryP: But even in third you can "be the character" no?

Libba Bray: Thanks, Kim. It felt a little like trying to chew gum and throw darts at the same time, though. :-)

Amanda: Don't you have to be the character, no matter what voice you use?

Libba Bray: yes, Amanda, I think so.

CynthiaLS: Beauty was very cross-cultural and historical; did you do tons of period reading, Libba?

Catherine Atkins: I guess--on comic novels, I like that distance of "oh, what next". I'm thinking The Liar by Stephen Fry--I think he does that. The mc in third person.

AJF: as long as you don't blow a bubble and get gum on the darts and have them come back and hit you in the head Libba

kimmar: well then, Libba, you're a multi task master in that case imho :)

Alex Flinn: I think the best multi-viewpoint books are the ones where the main character is not a person but a place. Middlemarch. The school in Rob Thomas's Slave Day. The town in Ellen Wittlinger's What's In a Name . . . in those books, the author can't be the main character because the main character isn't a person.

MaryP: ha! Yes, Melissa! A quote:Madeleine L'Engle says: " I know I'm not capable, really, of saying anything intelligent about anything I've written."

Brent Hartinger: Oh, can't we write characters that are nothing like us personally?

Libba Bray: Oh yessss, Cyn. Oh yesss. If you need party banter about the Hassassins or Victorian toilette, let me know.

tea_ta: Alex, that's a really good observation

Catherine Atkins: Alex, What's in a Name--one of my faves. And a multi viewpoint.

Amanda: Can we, Brent?

MarPerez: Alex, those are great examples. There's an adult writer who uses water as a mc.

Catherine Atkins: Brent, can we be fair to them if we do?

MarPerez: Lake of Dead Languages

Amanda: Don't you have to have at least a twinge of that character, in order to explore it?

tea_ta: I think we can Brent

NancyWerlin: "Madame Bovary, c'est moi."

Brent Hartinger: I definitely think so. Like Alex, I always respect and LIKE my characters (on some level). But I just finished one who is basically my polar opposite.

Libba Bray: I always think everyone you write is some facet of you, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

NancyWerlin: "I am Madame Bovary." -Gustave Flaubert

tea_ta: I feel like sometimes you can be even more open and honest because you're not attached in any way.

Libba Bray: "I am the Walrus, googoogajoo."

Catherine Atkins: But it's tricky not to let our real selves judge, Tea. IMO

tea_ta: I take back part of that. I agree with libba

NancyWerlin: Ha!

kimmar: Jerry Spinelli once said that he doesn't so much write what he knows, but he always writes what he cares about

MaryP: ROFL!

Brent Hartinger: But the way I work, my characters are never "me." They're more like my closest friend living in a room next door.

Angela: I don't think a character has to be a part of you, isn't that what fiction is about? Inventing things, learning about things you don't know about?

Brent Hartinger: I know everything about them, but they're definitely not me. Even Russell, who everyone thinks IS me (and which I haven't denied)

Amanda: Okay, then it's okay to write about someone whose life you can't know?

LindaJoySingleton: My YA character Sabine is NOT me, she's like someone standing beside me that I feel

Libba Bray: Brent, I don't mean that they are consciously you. That you set out to write about yourself. More that we often discover aspects of ourselves--longings, fears, prejudices, etc. in the writing of characters.

MaryP: Yes, Angela. I agree. Writers observe. That's our job.

Amanda: Like, I could write about a stereotypical ghetto, and nobody would care or notice?

LindaJoySingleton: on the other hand, my midgrade char Cassie is me

Catherine Atkins: That is the question, Amanda. Can you identify on a universal level--is that enough?

Amanda: Ha ha, Linda Joy, I thought you said, "somebody strangling beside me

Brent Hartinger: Definitely true, Libba.

Angela: So, in our observations, we are the best ones to choose what pov we use?

Amanda: I think that the further away you get from what you know intimately...

CynthiaLS: LJS' Sabine is very cool; also, I think a lot of readers do expect us to be our characters. Or that if we have things in common with them, it's veiled biography. I hear variations of that when speaking.

MaryP: Maybe there are layers--the universal and the specific? We explore the latter with the former?

Amanda: the more you're likely to get caught out, and the more you're likely to hurt people.

Martha: has an editor ever asked you to switch POV?

LindaJoySingleton: well sometimes Sabine is kind of demanding (g)...but not strangling yet

LindaJoySingleton: When I talk at schools, I hear myself say that Sabine just came to me and I feel like I'm sounding weird

Amanda: Nobody's ever asked me to switch pov.

Amanda: I feel like my characters are strangling right now. But jeez, it's not my fault! I'm doing the best I can!

LindaJoySingleton: not here either

Angela: Amanda, good point. But I still think you can write about traits that are not your own.

Catherine Atkins: Amanda, knowing that, does it hold you back--in figuring viewpoint(the being authentic part)

Libba Bray: Amanda, interesting. I do think there has to be a certain "remove." Victorian England is pretty removed from my Texas upbringing. I think that's why things that are very autobiographical are often wanting, because the writer instinctively feels the need to protect him/herself and is not safe enough to write the guts.

Amanda: Traits, yes, I agree. I'm very cautious about getting too far outside my own experience.

AJF: I have had an editor ask me to switch pov.

Brent Hartinger: Would that we could strangle our characters sometimes too! God, just behave, would you? I thought I had your story all outlined...

Angela: Good argument Libba.

Amanda: Ah, Brent's an outliner. Interesting...

Angela: More fun when they DON'T behave Brent!

MaryP: But you have male mc's Amanda. Isn't that out of your immediate experience?

Libba Bray: Ooh, outliners! Tell me of your tribe!

Brent Hartinger: Big-time. But I so don't have that argument with other writers any more.... :-)

thingschange: I think its interesting to talk about "authentic" teen voice in the context of books being banned left and right for reflecting how teens actually express themselves

Darice: Brent: ha! story of my writing life...

Amanda: Yes, Mary it is. Up to a point.

MaryP: I think you have to have some emotional connection to perhaps make you a very careful observer.

tea_ta: very true Mary

Brent Hartinger: True, Angela!

Amanda: I'm interested to know if outliners feel less of a need to feel emotional connection?

Debby G.: Brent, Cherie Bennett, Gordon Korman, and Dan Greenburg all outline extensively. It's okay!

MelissaW.: I always think that "write what you know" rule really refers to empathy more than more obvious forms of knowledge.

MarPerez: Patrick, too true. There's a huge disconnect somewhere between what gatekeepers perceive about teen life and what it's really like.

Catherine Atkins: AJF, did you switch the viewpoint when editor asked? I had that happen with Jeff in my first book--the voice used to be his sister.

Amanda: Is there any correlation?

Libba Bray: Thingschange--good point. My current WIP features a very profane character. Very, uh, horny. You know, a teenaged boy.

Angela: What does outlining have to do with emotional connection? Two different things.

MaryP: Patrick, are you referring to the recent Ultima and Crutcher bans?

Amanda: I'm leery of the danger of using someone else's pain for fodder.

AJF: I did Catherine

Brent Hartinger: lol. Oh, I'm not insecure about outlining (I have strong opinions on that). But I know it's such a mine-field! And frankly, so many writers I respect don't outline, so clearly whatever gets you through the night...

CynthiaLS: Is that the third book in the trilogy, Libba, or something new?

Libba Bray: Hey, we're two for two on the John Lennon quotes!

Brent Hartinger: (I wonder if it's a "guy" thing)

thingschange: in specific,yes, but its always an issue:

Alex Flinn: Oh, gosh, Patrick, I got a letter from a teen the other day about one of my books being removed from the curriculum in a La. school district. They objected to practically every word. The kid who wrote said, "We say worse than that at lunch, and they know it!"

Catherine Atkins: AJF, did you feel it helped the work?

kimmar: Can you explain your leeriness a bit more Amanda?

LindaJoySingleton: Outlining is just like connecting a map to your brain -- at least for me

Libba Bray: LOL! Something new, Cyn. You little minx.

Amanda: Angela, what are the two things you were going to mention?

AJF: honestly no.

AJF: the book was better before, I changed it back

thingschange: there’s the crux of this issue: you "write" speak like a teen and schools won't let teens read your books.

Catherine Atkins: Hmm. I felt it did in my case, but it's definitely a leap of faith. Good for you for going for something that worked for you.

CynthiaLS: Re: Guy thing; since men are in short supply here, I'm pointing out that my honey outlines (of course, then he tosses the outline--like a security-blanket thing).

AJF: after the editor left the publishing business

Amanda: I have an autistic son, and I come unglued when people use that sort of thing as a plot point. Any kind of learning disability, any kind of mental illness. So I can only imagine if I was a different race, how I'd feel when someone who didn't *know* it tried to write it.

Brent Hartinger: Must be playing mind games, Libba :-)

Angela: I meant that outlining and getting in touch emotionally with your characters are two different things. Like Linda said, outlining is a map..not even one that HAS to be adhered to.

Libba Bray: Ha!

Amanda: Okay, Angela--got it! Thanks.

Libba Bray: So how did you feel about Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime, Amanda?

Amanda: I do totally resent writers who use other people's pain as plot points. Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

Alex Flinn: But are they using someone's pain as "fodder" Amanda, or are they trying to tell a story for someone who can't tell or hasn't told it?

thingschange: But Amanda, that ghettos black authors (they can't write white) and locks out others exploring that experience

Amanda: That was a good book, Libba. He knew what he was doing, I thought.

Debby G.: I felt like the boy character I created in my first book was a lot more like me than the girl MC in my second book.

Angela: Also, teen age "voice", aren't they people who are just at a different developmental level? I hear so many different "voices" when I listen to teens are young kids or cranky adults.

Amanda: It ghettos white people, too. Hey, if you can get away with it, go ahead. But don't cry when it's not believed and you get raked over the coals, is all I'm saying.

MarPerez: Amanda, I understand about what you're saying about coming unglued when people use people's pain as a plot point. But if a writer is coming from an honest place, where they want to understand and/or tell a story. I think everyone was a right to tell us a story and no one has the right to say "YOU can't tell that story."

AJF: Catherine, the pov switch has worked for me in other stories, just not that one

Amanda: I think I have a write to say, 'You did it badly; you're a bad writer." That's how strongly I feel about it.

Catherine Atkins: That's the whole thing, AJF, if you can believe in something as a writer. It's so important to have that passion.

Amanda: A right to say. Duh.

Amanda: Nobody has a right to write lightly, just because they think they know someone else's pain.

kimmar: so it's seems less the issue Amanda, and more the treatment of it, no?

Amanda: Now, you can feel called to a story. And research the heck out of it. And maybe you can do it justice. I've seen it done.

Amanda: Yes, kimmar.

Debby G.: But we're never in the exact situation as our characters. Unless we're writing a memoir.

kimmar: I agree completely with that Amanda

Angela: I think most everyone here would agree with that statement. But a story told in a true "voice" with the right pov is supporting someone in pain.

Amanda: That's why I'm saying, the further you get from what you know, the more research you have to do.

NancyWerlin: I'm remembering how rageful I was when Sue Miller published her "autism" novel, Family Pictures. She got it so wrong and yes, it hurt to read how wrong it was. But Curious Incident was perfect. It's all about getting it right. And if you feel passionately that you have to try -- do it.

Amanda: Angela, it's more often done badly than not. IMHO.

Amanda: yes, Nancy--and be willing to take the fall, if you miss something you shouldn't have missed.

Alex Flinn: But how do you know you've done it right until you've done it? I've had people tell me I portrayed dating violence correctly, but I've never been in a violent relationship. Was I wrong to write about it?

thingschange: <DITTO>

Angela: Should we go to the bookstore and count how many books we felt were done "wrong"? It goes beyond the "Issue" books..lol :)

NancyWerlin: You can't know. You do your best and you pray. That was how I felt, writing about Huntington's disease.

Amanda: I guess you do your best, and then cross your fingers, cringing. Looks like you did just fine, Alex.

Libba Bray: No, Alex. I felt you did it well.

kimmar: but even if you do write from experience, it's YOUR experience, and someone else will experience a trauma, even in the same vein, differently

Debby G.: And even though Phillip Roth is Jewish, I didn't like his portrayal of Jews. I don't think most Jews are like that.

NancyWerlin: Ha! And I love Philip Roth, Debby.

Catherine Atkins: True, kimmar, it's impossible to predict what might offend a reader.

Amanda: Okay--going out on a limb. I'm white. I don't feel I should write from a black person's pov because I don't even know how a black person fixes their hair in the morning.

Martha: interesting, Debbie---what's an example?

Brent Hartinger: Isn't that the fear of every author who writes a character that isn't "them"? That someone will stand up and shout "Fraud!"

Debby G.: I like his books a lot. But I hate that he's a self-loathing Jew.

kimmar: argghh, so much to stress over, if you let these worries infest you

Debby G.: He has the stereotypical JAP characters, for instance.

NancyWerlin: He's not portraying all Jews, you know. Just the one's he's writing about.

Libba Bray: Nancy, part of what made Double Helix so effective was using Huntington's Disease as almost a background character, but the emotional fallout involved was real, real, real. I guess that's what it's about for me. Action, reaction.

Amanda: kimmar, the way I look at it is, you can be stressed now while you have time to get it right, or you can be stressed later when the reviewers butcher you.

Catherine Atkins: Sure, Brent. It's a factor--it's there for most of us. Unless there's a way to ignore the feedback and write entirely for yourself--can anyone do that?

kimmar: I agree about that strength, among many, of Double Heliz libba

thingschange: What, Brent, some 15 year old foster girl told you off?

Angela: Amanda, even though you feel strongly...would you deny a writer the chance to try?

kimmar: yikes, Helix

NancyWerlin: I believe that if you know trauma, that feeling is universal and you can use it in other places.

kimmar: I'm just naturally stressed all the time Amanda, lol

Libba Bray: yes, exactly, Nancy.

Amanda: No, but I don't think anyone should be denied the chance to say somebody else did it hurtfully.

MaryP: I think I understand what Amanda is saying, for instance I read My Sister's Keeper, and having some personal experience with a child with cancer, I was a little skeptical but she either did her research impeccably well, or she has some first hand experience somewhere. If she hadn't nailed a few points, the whole story would have fallen apart for me.

Angela: I agree.

NancyWerlin: But I think Amanda is right -- research like mad.

Brent Hartinger: I've been so freaked out about foster kids telling me I was a fraud. But it's been just the opposite. I think it's because the portrayal was sympathetic. They can forgive minor mistakes, because they're so grateful to see their stories taken seriously.

Amanda: Like MAD!!!

Libba Bray: Yes, and hey, when somebody does a poor job, well, ready the tomatoes. :-)

kimmar: I feel the same way about Speak Mary, which I loved but had concerns with

thingschange: <Brent, every foster kid who read it I know said you nailed it right on>

MaryP: What were those concerns, Kimmar?

Angela: They need to start selling rain slicker at the conferences (for the tomotoes)

Brent Hartinger: Thanks, TC! Trust me, I'm relieved...

Alex Flinn: I've had that experience . . . a writer I know is very angry with me because she had a similar experience to BREAKING POINT at a church her family attended. She wasn't mad that I did a bad job, but that I *dared* to write about something like that at all. Some people feel like they own certain problems.

Libba Bray: Brent, the fraud thing, argh. I freaked writing about Victorian girls. I did research like mad but it always felt like it wasn't enough and I was taking certain liberties. It's fusion cooking, to a certain degree. So I'm always waiting to get creamed.

thingschange: Okay, but another crux: research about an issue brings you the most common facts; make your characters live those facts and you have a stereotypical character.

Amanda: But Libba, there aren't any Victorian girls around. So you have more leeway.

kimmar: Mary, I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms here, and I really did love so much of the book, but I felt that there would be more of an emotional reaction to the fact that the bad guy was roaming the halls daily

Amanda: That's different, Libba.

Libba Bray: Oh honey, you never met my grandmother. Sheesh. :-)

Brent Hartinger: But I honestly think that if you have "heart," if you honestly love the character you write about, that will come through. If you get the emotional truth, the other stuff is less important. Which isn't to say we don't have to TRY to get the details right!

Amanda: It's all about hurting the readers. If you don't hurt anybody, you're cool.

MaryP: Patrick, only the most common facts if you don't delve in deeply and take your time I think.

Amanda: I don't agree, Brent.

Amanda: Is Cyn Smith here? What do you think, Cyn?

CynthiaLS: I'm here. I'm printing, but I'm here. What is my question?

Amanda: Cyn's like, Leave me out of this.

Brent Hartinger: God, TC, that is so true. Research can be detrimental in a way. You need primary sources, that's for sure

NancyWerlin: What Mary P said.

thingschange: What is your favorite color? What is your quest? What is the average wind speed -

Brent Hartinger: How so, Amanda?

MaryP: No can of worms, Kim. We all react to details differently.

AJF: Amanda, no matter what you write, you're always going to have someone hurt in some way by it

Darice: Libba, what I liked about your Victorian girls is that their concerns and squabbles rang true to me -- girls in groups, girls in cliques-- and you grounded it very well in the history. You have to get at historical truth and girl truth.

Libba Bray: Thingschange, lol!

Amanda: Do you think it's okay to write outside your own experience, and if you do it with a good heart it doesn't matter if you're inaccurate in the details.

Brent Hartinger: Oh, sorry, no! That's not what I meant.

Amanda: Again, AJF, I don't agree. Not the hurt I'm talking about.

AJF: people experience things differently, and they may look at your book and say that's not the way it is

Angela: The thing is Amanda, although so many things are universal everybody's personal interpretation is mostly unique. Sure you stack people into groups, but you're going to find people who have had the same experience you've had but they see it completely different...and that could be hurtful too, but true.

Amanda: Brent, I just don't think good intentions are always enough.

Brent Hartinger: We need to do research, yes. (I worked in a group home, and have worked with homeless teens for year)

MaryP: ah, but Amanda, there are no ONE set of details. Every experience is different.

Amanda: You guys are getting theoretical. I'm talking personal.

Brent Hartinger: Oh, yes, I agree, Amanda. I just meant, when all is said and done, the emotional truth matters more. Which you can only know by first person experience of some sort, I suppose...

Martha: Can you give an example of something that you thought was hurtful (an ex. that's not one of our books, of course...)

Amanda: From what I understand, My Heart Is On the Ground was very hurtful to a lot of people.

thingschange: IME, your write the emotional life of the character, then do your research to make sure you've not represented that experience

CynthiaLS: Okay, cross-cultural writing. I've written as an insider (which is no free pass, the standard is higher) and as an outsider (my current hero is a native Texan, by which I don't mean indigenous), and ultimately, I think (1) we should do our utmost to approach our manuscripts with enthusiasm and respect (as it translates in research) (2) limiting artists to quasi-biography is at worst minimizing and will hurt minorities more (3) no one is perfect; we set the highest standards, but we are also to forgive one another and ourselves.

Brent Hartinger: Wow, Cyn, that's good!

kimmar: yes Cynthia!

Amanda: Very diplomatic, Cyn. Well said.

CynthiaLS: Not the first time I've been asked. ;-)

kimmar: I'm writing a book that deals with rape, but consciously not from the victim's pov. I started out writing it that way, has the authority to do so, but another character kept nagging me to look at it from her perspective

Brent Hartinger: I do think, in the age in which we live, there is an element of under-represented minorities being thin-skinned.

Brent Hartinger: And expressing frustrations for past negative portrayals

Brent Hartinger: And I say this as a gay person, who gets angry at times

Amanda: Rape would be a good example of something that could be very hurtful if you didn't handle it very carefully.

MaryP: Kim, so you are writing it from the outside looking in?

Angela: I'm not gay, a little giddy, but not gay..and I can get furious over the way the gays are treated.

thingschange: Boy, Amanda, are you going to hate my WIP: 1pst person POV African American being raped by her step brother

thingschange: African American girl

Brent Hartinger: For me, I feel like I can tell if the writer at least did his or her home work

Brent Hartinger: If not, I'm angry. If so, I can forgive a lot.

Amanda: I'll be rooting for you Patrick--hope you get it done well.

MarPerez: I think the most important thing is to address each character as a person rather than a representative of a group.

Angela: That's a good point.

Alex Flinn: But unless you're not Pat Conroy and writing your autobiography with different names, you're going to end up writing about something that requires research. So where do you draw the line. I could say that only lawyers should write books dealing with the law because non-lawyers almost always forget something. But that would be harsh, wouldn't it?

kimmar: Amanda, I've dealt with that "issue" both professionally as a therapist, and, unfortunately, personally as well. I don't say that to bring my own baggage in here but even so, I chose to write from a different pov because I felt like I knew "my side" so well, but wanted to explore other experiences around the same issue

Catherine Atkins: Mar, what's out of the hands of the writer is if the character is *seen* that way.

Amanda: Would it, Alex? Why shouldn't a writer who writes about law have to be accurate?

Libba Bray: Brent, that's interesting. I consider myself a GAP--gay American princess, meaning I am the daughter of a gay man. (Ask me about my two dads!) I have written a lot about that experience (not published) and often wonder how it would be perceived. I would probably feel very head-swively, Bette-Davis-quotin' mad if somebody said I couldn't "authentically" write about it.

Brent Hartinger: Alex, you're withering...lol

Amanda: So kimmar, you have a lot to say about it, that will be accurate and have depth as well.

thingschange: A final crux: we want each character to be a person, yet teen are going to do say act in some stereotypical ways because they are teens and all going through similar developmental stages

Angela: But Libba, if you could publish some of that it would be great for closed minded people to see that kids with gay parents turn out okay.

CynthiaLS: (Cyn's inner lawyer is rubbing her hands together and contemplating how much money lawyers could make under such a regime)

Libba Bray: LOL, Cyn

Amanda: My kids just walked in, and so I must go.

Alex Flinn: Amanda, 90% of the legal stuff on TV is inaccurate, so accuracy is obviously not a requirement.

Angela: But teens are people which means they don't have to behave in a stereotypical way.

Amanda: Now that I've cast fear into everyone's souls...

MaryP: hm, I disagree Patrick. I think teens are just as unpredictable as adults.

Brent Hartinger: Libba, I think you should be able to write about it even without the gay parents! But others, um, disagree

Martha: gotta go, too---it's been interesting--good writing to all

Amanda: But wait! Alex, are you saying we don't have to be accurate because of TV????

Angela: You're great Amanda.

Amanda: Jeez louise. E-mail me if you want to add--I have to do the bedtime thing.

MaryP: (ha--we love you, Amanda!)

MarPerez: I have a question for the panel. Best handling of pov in a ya?

thingschange: It can be inaccurate on TV - if its on fox

MaryP: What do you mean, Mar?

Alex Flinn: No, I'm just saying it isn't and no one much cares. The way to insure accuracy is to require everyone to stick to autobiography, but then no one would be able to write anything.

Catherine Atkins: mar--too many to name--but my fave-fave, I've said before, is Kathe Koja's Rachel in Straydog.

MarPerez: Give me your FAVORITE ya with an unusual, original or just plain well-done pov (like I love The Pigman's two povs)

Brent Hartinger: Thingschange...stereotypes. God, what a pandora's box. I think it has something to do with intent, though. Malicious intent verses..something else?

Angela: Brent, she should write it with the gay parents so the kids can feel supported and the right feel thwarted.

kimmar: I love the voice in AMERICA

Libba Bray: I love Rob Thomas's Rats Saw God. Great voice.

Alex Flinn: I know I'll get tomatoed, but I thought the POV in FREEWILL was incredible. I really felt like I *was* the character, his sense of displacement, etc.

MarPerez: Libba, great example! I'm currently digging on Rob Thomas' new television baby Veronica Mars.

MaryP: Oh, too many for me to name too. I am a huge fan of Sonya Hartnett--loved Harper's voice.

Brent Hartinger: Rob Thomas does Veronica Mars? Interesting...

MelissaW.: For me, it's DAMAGE, hands down. But going back aways--and to a MG novel--I love Rumer Godden's THURSDAY'S CHILDREN, which breaks all kinds of rules. For anyone looking to see how fluid third-omniscient can be--in a kid's book, especially--take a look at that.

thingschange: <Brent, you want to rephrase that as not to spread rumors!>

Libba Bray: Thanks for the tip, Melissa.

Jonathan: Hartnett has a new YA out this year in Australia and England called SURRENDER. Hope it makes it here later this year or next. If you google it you can find a very praiseworthy article in an Australian newspaper.

MaryP: And of course, EVERY author here writes with incredible voice and pov ; )

Brent Hartinger: ha! "produces" Veronica Mars...hmmm, that's not too much better.

MaryP: oh, thanks, Jonathan!

CynthiaLS: Thanks, sweet pea Libba. I thought Gary Soto's The Afterlife had an interesting (ghostly POV), but I love so many.... Ruth Pennebaker's Don't Think Twice comes to mind.

kimmar: how do you think multiple povs in a novel affect voice? Or do they not?

Libba Bray: YA Rashamon?

Catherine Atkins: Oh, just thought of a great male writer writing female voice--John Marsden's So Much to Tell You--totally believable damaged teen girl.

Jonathan: Speaking of AFTERLIFE, what are we to make of all these novels I call children of LOVELY BONES, that is AFTERLIFE, BEHIND YOU, Adele Griffin's forthcoming WHERE I WANT TO BE, and Chris Crutcher's SLEDDING HILL.

Libba Bray: Ooh, I love Chris Crutcher.

kimmar: ooh talk about voice. I LOVE Lovely Bones

Catherine Atkins: This has been fun---thanks all. Gotta go.

MarPerez: I'm soooo far behind. I'm still reading fall releases. Night Cathy!

Alex Flinn: kimmar, if a novel is in multiple viewpoints (particularly 1st person), the voice of each viewpoint needs to be consistent with the character.

Brent Hartinger: Just don't blame the authors, Jonathan. Most of those books were probably written long before BONES.

MaryP: I think all the creative vibes swirl the planet, Jonathan and decide to light on everyone at once with a certain theme.

Jo Knowles: I'm leaving too. Not that you knew I was here! Sorry to be so quiet. Just absorbing all your brilliance. Good night!

CynthiaLS: Me, too! Goodnight, all! Thank you for your insights!

MarPerez: I'm writing frantically because I saw something in a newspaper article and I just know about 50 others saw it too! Night Cyn & Jo!

Angela: I just finished Heir Apparent, which worked so well in it's pov, (I think 3rd, sorry, my newbie is showing) I wonder if I would have enjoyed it as much if it had been in 1st?

Jonathan: Well, I hate coming in on the tail end of a chat having missed the whole thing, but would anybody care to discuss new books published this year?

MarPerez: AJF, there's never enough time for reading. I try to stay fairly well-read in adult lit, too and it's hard!

MarPerez: Jonathan, tell us some of your new favorites. I'm drooling over a few of my friends new books.

Jonathan: Marlene, I like DAY OF TEARS by Julius Lester, A ROOM ON LORELEI STREET by Mary Pearson, couple others. What strikes your fancy?