This section includes comments or questions of a general nature about Mossman guitars.
2006-10-25 --- Same emailer as previous.
Howdy sort....
Another Mossman story from my trip to Winfield two years ago...
I was catching some shade under the grandstand, where some of the vendors
display their stuff, and was wandering from one end to the other, looking at
guitars and all the other stuff. I noticed a young guy with a guitar that
looked Mossman-like...The pickguard was right, but the headstock was
different. I ran over and asked him if it was a Mossman, and he replied that
it had been built from Mossman parts his dad owned. He walked us over and
introduced us to his dad.
We (the Delta pilot and I ) met Bud Ford, a dulcimer maker,
ex-hippie-type guy who had a display booth selling dulcimers. We asked about
his Mossman connection, and he told us that he'd written Stu sometime around
'77 to inquire about his fret cutting saw (or jig), and had actually in
turn come to Winfield from Colorado Springs to see Stu's setup.
At the time it seems that Stu had since closed production, and the bank
was in the process of foreclosing on the factory and it's contents. Stu owed
the bank on loans he couldn't pay after the Conn debacle. Stu approached Bud
about buying the factory from the bank...Stu's idea was this: Bud would
purchase the factory and its contents...everything...for the 24,000 that the
bank was owed. Then, Stu would in turn purchase back from Bud exactly half
of everything for 12K. Bud was skeptical at first, since he wasn't sure how
the hell he was gonna get somebody to loan him 24K, but somehow the deal was
struck, and Bud Ford owned the Mossman factory's contents.
The next week, as I recall Bud telling me, he brought several large
u-haul-type box trucks to Winfield, and during one very hot kansas summer
week, he and Stu went through the factory bolt-by-bolt, nut-by-nut and
divided everything 50/50. There were guitars...completed guitars,
half-completed guitars, cases, parts of guitars, filing cabinets, sandpaper,
jigs, routers, dishes, bulk steel rods used to make truss rods, decals,
chemicals, tons of wood, fingerboards...you name it.
Bud told me that he must have split some 500 guitars with Stu that week,
all in cases. He said he probably had 30 or more Golden Eras, which he later
sold off at 500 a pop, just to move 'em out the door! He also acquired a
large number of tops, sides, bridges, neck blanks, machines, everything.
Occasionally during that week, Bud said they'd fight over who got the
one-off items...at one point there was the side-bending machine and the
thickness sander...Stu had plenty of bent side sets, and he had more use for
the sander. Bud had no use for the bender (dulcimers), and also wanted the
sander. I recall Bud telling me that he and Stu would flip a coin at such
impasses, and that except for the thickness sander, Stu won every coin toss
that week.
Another funny item Bud took was the large air compressor that ran the
factories air lines. Very large, probably a few hundred gallons. Bud said
that it was just so beastly heavy as they tried to move it into his truck
back to Colo, only to discover back home that the damn tank was half full of
water! No one had ever bothered to drain the thing...
So, I wrote and called Bud several times in the next 2 years, trying to
get a parts list of available original Mossman parts. He even had the
original shop drawing by Eddie Holic of the Golden Era. I really wanted a
copy of that. My intention was to buy some parts and make my own Golden Era.
I've built 5 guitars, and was stoked to try a 6th...a Mossman GE. But alas
Bud is a busy guy and I could never get the deal close enough to
happen...maybe I will try again to contact him.
Stu took his half of the stuff, which was enough to continue his limited
production two-man shop. In 83 he offered the remaining Mossman guitar items
for sale. I have an actual packet of materials that he put together and sent
to potential buyers. It included a 7-8page list of all the shop stuff, a
list of about 10-15 guitars he was liquidating, and some other items like
endorsements and what-not. Very interesting stuff.
That's why I really love my 80-075 Flint Hills. It's really perfect, and
shows how he and Chris had gotten the guitarbuilding perfected. And it's one
of the later guitars...Stu stopped altogether in 83, citing in his letter to
potential buyers, that the shop materials had affected his health to the
point that he couldn't build any longer. Sad stuff...in 83 I believe he'd
have been around 40 years old.
OK sort, that's my Mossman/Winfield/Walnut Valley story as best I can
recall it. Take care and send me some photos of your Mossmans. Rich Reau
2006-10-21 Hi, I saw your web page. Re: the 79 FH 12...not sure about the woods, but i do know that by 79 Chris Fischer and Stu and Stu's wife were the only people working in the shop. I know this from Steve Mason (SCM IV in your older mossmans), and from Scott Baxendale, who has restored 2 guitars for me. I've owned 5 Mossmans over the years, a 72,73,75,76, and my only one now, #80-075, a fantastic FH with only Chris and Stu's signatures in it.
Two years ago, in Winfield, I had the pleasure of seeing and playing the Mossman "Thunderhead", alleged to be one of the last 2 Mossmans built, circa 1983 or 84. That guitar was quite remarkable...like a GE only fancier. Stu's was the only signature inside. A Delta airline pilot and Winfield native bought the guitar that weekend for 10K. It's mate, a KOA wood model did not sell...not sure whatever became of that guitar. The story was that a Winfield dentist helped Stu out by purchasing these 2 guitars when he was low on cash. The dentist did not play guitar, as the story goes, and kept the guitars in a bank vault. He made them available to a Kansas music dealer, who brought them to the Walnut Valley Festival in Sept. of 2004 I believe.
No Name
I didn't see your name on your web site. Maybe I just missed it.
I have been a Mossman owner since 1973. I still play my 1973 Flint Hills every week.
I met Stuart Mossman around the time he began building guitars. We became good friends.
The last time I saw him was at his funeral in Winfield.
I'm writing in regard to your "Amazing and Tragic -- Flint Hills 12 -- last of a great line."
At the end of his guitar building, it was just Stuart Mossman and Chris Fisher.
I was in the shop several times during that final era. The last batch of guitars they
made were very special. Stuart had a number of them made for himself and he kept them in a
bank vault in Winfield. I think some of them were sold before Stuart died, but I don't know
what happened to the rest of them.
Chris Fisher is still around this area, so he may know what happened to them.
Chris no longer builds instruments.
By the way, during the '70s, a couple of guys in the Mossman Guitar Shop made an A-style mandolin with an extended fretboard.
It's got a spruce top and mahogany back & sides and is finished like a guitar. I bought it to help them get started making more mandolins, but it never happened. It's the only one they ever made. It's a lot better than the Gibson F-5 that I used to own.
Orin Friesen
Prairie Rose Wranglers
Flint Hills Owner
I am the original owner of a Mossman Flint Hills, 1975.
I odered it from the factory and specified some custom items like fret markers, purfling, etc.
It was always a beautiful guitar, and sounded great (even better today).
However, the neck was never set up properly from the beginning which resulted in poor action.
The bridge had to be brought down way too low in an attempt to make the action acceptable.
But, I was never happy with it.
Last year I finally got around to talking with Terry, the owner of Guitar Works
in Evanston IL, near where I live.
He is very knowledgeable about Mossmans and knew Stuart M. years ago.
He said that Mossman never got their neck/bridge set ups consistently right.
He has done lots of Mossman neck resets over the years for people who have had
the same complaint I had. So, I handed over my guitar to Terry and he solved the problem
with a great neck reset and set up. ($300) Now, after all these years, I'm
really happy with my Mossman. Are there others out there who have this problem?
It's fun to own a Mossman - lots of people have never seen one, so it's kind of a curiosity.
I enjoyed your website....how long has it been around?
Sort's response Never heard this one. Of the hundreds of Mossman's I have played, the only neck set problems encountered were due to heat damage or other abuse. Have also seen 7 or 8 virtually mint condition Mossman's. All necks were good. This is not to say that no neck set was ever defective. It can happen. I own a Great Plains with double drilling in the top. The first holes were way off.
Your Friend "Sort" Speaks Out
There are only two reasons to buy a vintage guitar: utility and collectability.
I'd like to talk about collectability. I doubt that Mossmans will ever become
collectable and I hope we never see the high prices that the pre-1965 Martin
D-28's are going for. Can you believe any self-respecting flat-picker would
pay $20,000 and up for a 1941 Martin? Now that's collecting! In my view, much
of the appeal of the old Mossmans is that if you evaluate carefully, and buy
quality, you can acquire a great sounding acoustic for a very reasonable price.
Now, I own a number of Mossman guitars which I am keeping for investment purposes. It seems reasonable to assume that my investment will increase in value at a rate exceeding the Dow Jones average. But I do not believe this is collecting. Collecting always involves a certain amount of icon worship. This brings to mind the 3rd commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." There are some people out there, and you know who you are, who are asking me to worship a graven image, so to speak. I am talking about the prices I am seeing for those abalone and pearl encrusted special or custom order jobs and the Golden Era models that appear on ebay and elsewhere occasionally. I recently saw a nice (but modified) GE at a private sale list for $8,700! Geez, I felt like I should get down on my knees and genuflect. In my very humble opinion, no Mossman is worth more than $3000 in 2006 dollars. Maybe a mint, shrink wrapped, GP Custom, with a "thanks for ordering" card signed by Stuart Mossman himself is worth more than that, but it would have to sound mighty fine.
So, collectability is not a valid way to determine Mossman values. The only useful determinants of value are condition, playability, and sound quality. The amazing thing is, the afore mentioned GE with brand new strings on it was in the bottom 25% of acoustic guitars in terms of tone quality. In other words, it was a dog. My point? Just because it is a GE does not mean it is going to sound great.
This is a disposable commodity people! Eventually, if you use that $8700 guitar as God and Stewart intended, it is going to degrade into a useless assemblage of wood, plastic, metal, and glue. Maybe not this year, but eventually. OK, so now I am crossing over into the realm of utility. Why buy a vintage guitar for any other reason than to play it? Why worship something -- in the sense of collecting -- when there is so much more value in using it as God and Stewart intended? I have to admit, my head is gigantic, and my ego well stoked at the local fiddler's contests. People rarely remember who I am, but I often hear something like, "There's the damn Mossman again." Few things in my life have provided as much pleasure as jamming with friends and sounding great on a top notch guitar. Collectibles, Icons; Utility, pleasure; utility, pleasure. Do we have some sort of equation here?
Notes from a serious collector in Arkansas
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005
I was happy to stumble upon your website. I own a pair of 1976 Tennessee Flat Tops (TFT), 6 and 12. I traded for both of them in the early 90´s. It seems that most Mossmans I see around here were made in 1976 - I guess a Mossman salesman must have passed through Little Rock around that time. I acquired the used TFT 12 string in "closet classic" condition: absolutely mint except for some minor age checking in the top finish by the neck joint. The TFT 6 string was the polar extreme. When I found her, she looked as though someone had kept her under an automobile lube rack. There was literally oily tar petrified all over the back and sides. The front had deep strumming scars, extreme finish darkening and overall (but drop dead gorgeous) weather checking. The entire body is an assemblage of finish scrapes and worn spots, yet the neck and fingerboard appear well cared for. Cleaning the gunk off, without removing what was left of the body´s finish, was a chore; but it now looks like a squeeky clean but beat up war-horse with kind of a Willie Nelson´s "Trigger" vibe. And it sings! It sounds so unbelievably big, balanced and in tune. it´s my all time favorite sounding acoustic. Much to my surprise, looking inside this badly abused guitar reveals very neatly made and applied luthier´s cleats repairing a couple of slight cracks in the back and side. Somebody else apparently loved her as much as I do; once upon a time.
I´ve been a guitar player for 42 years and have owned several Mossmans, including a Golden Era (GE), Winter Wheat and Great Plains Custom; but I traded most of them off because of a problem that I don´t see mentioned on this website: top sinkage at the neck tongue (unless this is the soundhole deformation to which you refer on your "Evaluating" page). In my experience, this problem occurs, to some extent, with most old flat tops from most manufacturers, but I´ve observed that old Mossmans seem the most susceptible and severely effected. I think it´s a combination of Stuart´s tone enhancing neck block design and his extremely thin, fine grain tops that cause this problem. Of course, these are also the features that give most Mossmans that little extra edge in tonal balance over... say... old Martins. IMHO, mahogany Mossmans eat 1930´s D-18s for breakfast - and I know, ´cause I own ´em. But back on the subject of depressed tongues; I´ve found that continuous high humidification can correct this problem in some Mossmans, notably my two "keeper" Tennessee Flat Tops. Unfortunately, other Mossman tops just plain sink, like the Golden Era, et al. I tried having the GE professionally repaired, but just ended up with an expensive neck reset that didn´t much fix the action or the deformed looking top. Oh well, it was way too fancy to take out in Arkansas much, anyway.
One more topic: top belly-ing. At first I thought "tongue depression"
was causing an increasingly uncomfortable action on my Tennessee Flat Top.
After applying a straight edge to the top, I found that the top around the
bridge was belly-ing. This was most likely the result of the high humidity
(55%) I purposely maintain in my Mossman room. I tried a JLD Bridge Doctor
from Stuart MacDonald and it simply, elegantly solved the problem. At first
the JLD deemed to stifle the tone a bit, but after "playing it in",
as recommended in the JLD installation instructions, the guitar sounds better,
louder and more focused than it did before. The model JLD I bought can be
installed reversibly, but after trying it a while, I liked it so well, I drilled
through the TFT´s bridge and installed a permanent JLD.
I currently own various Taylors, Martins, Gibsons, Larivees, Breedloves and
Guilds. I use each of them for whatever specialty application they´re
"good for". But when I play for personal enjoyment, I always pick
my beloved Tennessee Flat Top.
Great Plains not always made of Brazilian Rosewood To the best of my knowledge (which is not at all complete) Mossman literature and catalogues specify Brazilian Rosewood (Dabergia Nigra) for the early 70´s Great Plains model guitars. Why then are there so many Great Plains guitars made of Indian Rosewood, or other species? One of my GPs is AMAZON ROSEWOOD (Dalbergia spruceana). It has the best top, so it sounds the best, so the non-Brazilian aspect is not so important.
An interesting aspect of Brazilian Rosewood is the fact that Brazil stopped exporting in the late 60´s. By the early 70´s it was difficult to obtain. Most guitar manufacturers switched to other woods, such as Indian rosewood. The interesting thing is that exotic hardwood vendors continued selling wood labeled as Brazilian rosewood (Dabergia nigra) to this day. But what they are selling is actually other more available look-alike species. Even today, buyers are sometimes fooled or tricked into buying other species. Bait and switch, and out right lying are often used.
Fortunately, the back and sides woods are not nearly so important as the quality of the top. Most flat pickers have heard at least one great Mahogany guitar. For example, there are those Martin D-18s that sound so great. Excellent top design and construction are the reason vintage Mossmans sound so good. Stuart was a master luthier for sure.
Modernized neck block structureWhat prompted Mossman to change the neck block and related top bracing structure in 1975? Any opinions as to which is better?
Seeking Anecdotal Experiences With Modernized Neck Block StructureHow does modernizing the neck block on a pre-1975 Mossman affect tone and projection? Better? Worse? Please send comments concerning your experiences with this modification.
Flint Hills
I happen to think the Mossman Flint Hills is the worlds most under appreciated guitar. I have played a lot of these. They usually sell for around $500-$1000 (2004 prices) and are an excellent value if in playable shape. I have seen very few other guitars in that price range that sound as good.
The Mossman catalogues specify Indian rosewood, but I´ve seen and played FHs made of Brazilian, and other species. My understanding from talking to former Mossman factory workers is that around 5% of FH models used other wood species for back and sides.
An excellent reason to consider an FH over more expensive Mossmans is the unbound neck. Bound necks are more expensive to refret because the plastic binding takes special care during fret removal and replacement. Since I play a great deal, I practice on my FH and perform on my favorite GP. If I had to choose between the two, I think I´d keep the FH for that reason alone. (I wear out frets a lot.)
How about some comments on cost versus value? Favorite Luthier
Can anyone recommend a great luthier? Please recommend luthiers who have done repair work for you. (If you can´t say something nice, don´t say anything at all. We want to help people, not hurt people. Business is tough enough as it is.) We will start a luthier name list and track who gets the most votes as the best luthier.