Ann Lane, Re. OUTWARD BOUND COFFEE

By the way - I really enjoy this amalgam of posts. I love the way people think and (most of the time) I love that we all think differently. With Rob in Iraq I devote a lot of thought to Peace - and since I believe that Peace is not necessarily the absence of War, I wonder very often what it really is. Hence my comments before - that it is day to day respect and acceptance. I do know that it gets much more complicated on a geo-political level, but I just do wonder what we really can do that would make a difference in the world. And does that really start at the cellular level or is Peace something that can be imposed from the top down? I'm of the mind that Peace has its origins in each person's heart - how they love themselves, is how they will love other people...and I don't think many people really love themselves. Lots of blue sky thinking but, you know, what we're doing today does not seem to be working. Enough ramblng for today.

Ann
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By Willy Timmerman

March 15, 2004: After Listening About the Hubble Telescope on NPR and Reading About It in the Paper This Morning, I See a Greyhound Bus in Mesquite, TX

The big silver bus flies / down heaven's highway / at five miles per second / with its headlights off / peering into deep black space / without a human driver / without friction, without wheels, / gears locked on one place / without diesel without any / passengers without brakes / locked into ultra deep space / without stopping at each / galaxy spinning out on / the edge of dim lighted / deserted road heading out / to creation to the original / ignition of gas the 10-ton / magic bus locked into / a permanent skid with / the curvature of light.
***

CAFE TUESDAY

1. Helen Cariotis writes, Re. Coffee

Hi Dot Tom! (why don't you and Carolyn get separate addresses)? : )

First, I really like how you have edited COFFEE so those of us who are a little slower can see who writes what....thanks. It is much more clear now.

I agree with Ann L. that there's nothing like war to make us think about (wish for) peace. This is, after all, what propelled the anti-war movement of the '60s. And for those of you who weren't there, it was huge...we practically closed down the University of Texas on a number of occasions. Ahhh, the good old days...sit-ins, boycotts, burning effigies, tear gas!

Now, it seems to me that war is not only normal and usual for just about all human cultures, it may even be needed. Other than natural disasters, war may be the only great leveler. Of course, since my Marine son is stateside, it is easy for me to go on about war. If I were in Ann's place, who knows, would I revert to my old peace-preaching self?

Helen

...

Helen,

At this point seperate e-addresses for tr and cb mc would create more problems that it would solve.

Glad Coffee is going down easier.

I've forgotten the name of the essayest who hoped to find a rational alternative to war. He said most young men from late teens through early twenties need some form of death-defying team contest - it's just part of male human development. Any proposed alternative to war would have to take that into account. Let them count coup with stone-age weapons, then, far from the threat of nuclear annihilation.

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2. Don Hockaday writes, Re. Enduring Freedom

"...so call it Operation Enduring Freedom."

"Enduring Freedom" is brought to you be the producers of "Clear Skies Initiative." There are unofficial alternative names, but for the sake of achieving peace in our own Dot Tom, I will sit on them. Those who write the score can name the tune applies to sonatas in war drums. Naming wars is very recent. Even though we like "War for Independence," the "Revolutionary War" seems to have stuck. Nobody hired PR professionals back when the distinction arose between "The War Between the States" and "The Civil War." It is trivia -- we don't have wars anymore anyway. We have conflicts, actions, campaigns, and initiatives instead. They avoid messy congressional articles of war and we can kick butt without them. "Its just a police action; its not even a war," bled the same in Korea. With modern marketing, think what could have been done with "The Viet Nam War/conflict."

In 1846, President James Polk sent General Zachary Taylor to start a war. Taylor assembled what he called his "Army of Occupation" to start the Mexican American War. President Polk sent him to start the war at --- Where? Three, two, one -- buzz, Port Isabel. I spent the last two days and nights in the south Texas thorn brush. Skinned two rattlesnakes and stomped at least a dozen scorpions. I have salve on the scratches, and appreciated the hot bath on return. On the whole, I prefer the brush to the bath. Nevertheless, it is difficult to grasp why two nations would invest so much blood for what I can find between the Nueces and Ramondville. Neither knew of the oil reserves.

I think it is safe to say Mexico had a plethora of cactus and ticks. A million or so square miles, more or less, was hardly worth the trip from Mexico City. What Mexico fought for was --- What? Three, two, one, buzz -- the port at Brazos Santiago. Polk didn't need South Bay or the enormous expanse of brush land south of the Nueces. If Polk had sent Taylor to, for instance, Hebbronville, Mexico would have probably just sent a sent a deed to everything north of Red Gate and an offer to supply minimum wage laborers. However, Polk then wouldn't have had much of a campaign, so he sent Taylor to Port Isabel. Think what Polk and Taylor could have done with modern marketing. The "Mexican-American War" and "Army of Occupation" just would not sell today.

While administers are administrating, legislators are legislating, protesters are protesting, and we discuss over coffee, we all know the terrorist cells are meticulously plotting to end it all. It is difficult to build much satisfaction in kicking it all around in front of a computer monitor, but we must or we will lose regardless of suicide bombers.

...

Don -

Re. Naming Wars: That wry name given to the Civil War - The Current Unpleasantness - has caught on at some websites, says my search engine, as a name for GW II.

It is also Mother Trudie's preferred term for the Anglican argument over the confimation of New Hampshire's Bishop, Gene Robinson. Opinion on Robinson's confirmation was divided at General Convention and is still divided, down into the parish level. It has become the elephant in our ecclasiastical living room - you know, the entire family pretends The Large Grey Animal is not there.
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WEDNESDAY CAFE

Helen Cariotis wrote, "Now, it seems to me that war is not only normal and usual for just about all human cultures..."

I realize the statement is not meant to justify war. However, the general statement echoes common justification or rationalization -- wars are inevitable -- by those opposing conscientious objectors to all war, and often at least hint at it for objectors to specific wars.

It is based on the contention that aggression is normal and usual in humans, hence so is war. This was addressed by UNESCO in what is referred to as the Seville Statement:
http://www.unesco.org/shs/human_rights/hrfv.htm

I should point out it is a debated political statement. I expect most general sociobiology texts deal with it.


Tom said, "He said most young men from late teens through early twenties need some form of death-defying team contest - it's just part of male human development."

Gender differences in aggression is a different topic.

Conspicuous group aggression and group aggressive display, especially with rooting spectators (=participants), is far more common than is "death-defying."
...

Don -

Quite some time back I asked Larry for a recollection from his stint in Veit Nam. He told of calling in an airstrike on an attack of his compound by North Vietnamese troops. The fighter jets came with guns, rockets, and bombs - and deadly accuracy. Soon, Larry said, he and the other troops were cheering the pilots' success. The compond was an ammo dump, so he was very aware of the oddity of the moment: "There we were," he said, "sitting on tons of explosives, cheering like spectators at a football game."

And of course there was Saddam's statue being pulled down, the cheering Iraqi crowds. And cheering crowds also in Palestine when the World trade center burned to the ground.

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2. From March Poems, By Willy Timmerman

Down in the bottom of a swimming pool / Drowned in the bright light held under by night / A person could be curled as if asleep.

If an adult, a whole life passes slowly -- / The struggle serene, soft and fluid, / Spirit slips out of body, then out of water, borne on air.

And if a child, not only the short past is seen / But the entire as-of-yet unlived future / Moves across eyes that barely saw an ancient star.

The night the sky seems light / Is the far north in the middle of summer -- here, / Clouds low and luminous, a liquid afterglow in the air.

One star dances on the water the moment / A word is spoken about the past and / Another one flickers something on into the future.

The thing at the bottom of the pool / Bothered my sleep all last night. In the shower / This morning I dove down to rescue it

Only to discover it was the spring / Constellation Scorpio wrapped around / The southern horizon of a season

Not quite here, or was it the end of / The Big Dipper pointing south to Arcturus / Back up behind your house on the corner?

***

THURSDAY COFFEE

Re. CAFE WEDNESDAY

1. Helen Cariotis

Don H. presents the "Seville" paper as a rationale that humans are not, genetically, a war-like species. The position paper was, I supposed, drafted by a UNESCO. So consider the source of the document. I say every living organism has the right to defend itself. Every living thing has the right to defend it's young, and it's territory. All species try to claim resouces that will benefit them. Not to so do puts them on a very precarious path if they want to survive over time.

I think Coffee is being steered by pacifists.

...

Helen -

I'm glad to know someone's steering this blasted thing.

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2. Mike Wright

Re. "war is normal and usual for just about all human cultures" and subsequent discussion:

It seems to me that rape, murder, speeding, cheating, drug abuse, and tax evasion are also "normal" for all human cultures. Makes you wonder why we waste money on law enforcement when we could be using it to buy our own guns.

Time (3 September 1983) detailed one such disturbing case:

"Last March, a 21 year old mother of two walked into Big Dan's tavern in New Bedford, Massachusetts, to buy a pack of cigarettes. A man in the bar threw her to the floor, stripped her and hoisted her onto a pool table, where he and three companions took turns raping, sodomizing and beating the woman. Other patrons cheered the rapists on, screaming, Go for it! Go for it!"

====================

Hey, why oppose things that are perfectly normal?

Cheers,
Mixer
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March 14, 2004: If I Could Record and Replay

The cardinal shoots his song / across the rain-soaked yard -- / it pierces the window, hits me / right in the head. Then he's silent, / watching with head askew or sneaking / through branches beginning to bud. / His silence is now as noticeable as / his song. He is either guilty of / something or he is celebrating / his freedom. He moves down the street, / firing his staccato song again. / If I could record and replay it / loud at a very slow speed, I know / it would sound like ice / on a river beginning to crack.
***

FRIDAY CAFE

Mike Wright, surely you are kidding, right? You are comparing what our Marines do to protect our way of life to rape, murder, speeding, cheating, drug abuse, and tax evasion? Do you honestly think these crimes are normal, in the same way my son wants to serve his country?

My husband, also a Marine, spent 26 months in 'Nam. Maybe he killed many people, maybe he didn't. I don't know because like every real hero (not the ones on Diane Sawyer or writing a book) he doesn't talk about it. He is gentle and law abiding. Maybe you need to meet some of our Marines if you honestly believe what you wrote.

And anyone who thinks he can be protected 24/7 from all things by law enforcement is nuts. And by the way, I do have weapons and am glad I can have them.

Helen Cariotis

(Proud Marine wife and mom)

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Don Hockaday, Re. THURSDAY COFFEE

Helen C.: "So consider the source of the document."

If it is a group, should it be "ad hominuris"?

As I said, it was influenced by politics. It is not a political question, but it is used politically.

Helen again: "I say every living organism has the right to defend itself."

On a population basis, usually selection pressure favors the winner (defence or aggression) that does not kill within the species. Humans have three problems:

1) Lethal weapons did not slowly evolve.

2) Many kill for reasons unrelated to personal, family, or population survival.

3) Many tend to think of enemies of other races or cultures as being members of different species. From the standpoint of war, especially among the soldiers, it is convenient to build on that. "Slant eyes," "gooks," "rag-heads" are not people with families, hopes, and souls. Segregationists actively promoted the concept that blacks are sub-human.

Helen in closing: "I think Coffee is being steered by pacifists."

As well as I can tell, there aren't any pacifists on board. If everyone agrees, there is nothing to steer. If very few disagree, they are necessarily steering and stirring.

1) What are positive attributes of war?

-- e.g. Wars build internal cultural cohesion

2) What are good reasons to go to war?

-- e.g. Defence against aggression.

In my mind, going to war to build internal cultural cohesion is not a good reason for it. Having to risk human lives to defend against aggression is not a positive attribute of war.

3) What are positive attributes of a specific war?

4) What are good reasons to enter a specific war?

5) What are good reasons to avoid a specific war?

What are common false reasons given for each?

Politicians and activists should be respected for their dedication toward greater good.

Balancing #4 & #5 is a political decision. The questions themselves should not be political. They are only made political by politicians and activists.

DAYLIGHT SAVING COFFEE

Re. RESPONSIVE COFFEE

WOW. At least we know where Mike Wright is coming from.

I don't even know how to respond to what he wrote. I am just the wife and mom of Marines. I can tell you, Mike, that my husband still remembers and carries the responsibility/guilt of his Marines that were cut down because they wouldn't pull the trigger on a "non-combatant" woman or child. We can't imagine what it must be like to see a little kid, or a woman carrying a baby, reach out to you only to step aside at the last moment to reveal a machine gun. Many, many more Marines were killed because they were "good" and moral people than ever killed in error. Nick had to write the letters to the mothers of those boys.

It is so sad that you feel the way you do about our brave Marines, and your country.

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I gotta say - that's pretty rough reading for a Mom who's frantically worried about her son's 'heart'. Not that I'm not a big girl, but I wrestle daily with the defense of freedom and liberty and the sacrifice of my sweet-hearted son - the balance that I pray that my young man will maintain when exposed to unspeakable horrors.
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