I'm going to invite them both back. And beg you to review the discussion up through the bagel. Two web pages. (Doggedly Political Coffee may be included later if it proves to have been the last gasp of a dying horse.)

http://mysite.verizon.net/trcbmc/id45.html

As inducement, here's a poem by Will Timmerman about a man dealing with a disaster:

After A Client Keeps Me Waiting Because He Was On The Phone To The Father of Two Boys He Didn't Even Know But Had To Talk To
(04-06-2004)

He got there just after the teenaged brothers
going too fast in a light rain
crashed, flipped, and burned
themselves to death just before
he got there unable

to open the doors the fire
so hot it pushed him back

in a glowing light against a hedge of bushes,
near the lake where he rides
his bike so often, his shadow
was to him as if
someone who
used to be there

like fire stains on asphalt.
***

Dateline History March 29, 1429 - Joan of Arc entered the besieged city of Orleans & led the French to victory.

Hey, now that I've sent my house guest home again... howza'bout a cuppa coffee???

As for other coffee - yes, please, and thank you for reminding me I have a life outside this tinfoil airplane.

+++

Dateline History March 30, 2004: My neighbor's catalpa tree carpets the green with snow-drop blooms that look up close like petticoats.

2. Re. What happened to Yonkerdu?

I've started another chapter & bogged down:

Farewell to Yonkerdu, 8

"Hugh," said Dennis, from the couch, "Where you headed?" He removed his arm from about Rose's shoulders. "I gotta talk to you."

"Me, too," said Hugh. "I mean there's something I want to talk to you about. So take me to the local grocery, Scobie and I are shopping for Twinkie."

As Dennis kissed Rose, Hugh focused on the television. "What's this? Oh yeah, the Iran Hostage Crisis, now in its umpteenth week. When are we just going to move into downtown Teheran and settle that damn mess? 'You kill one American, we hang a half-dozen ayatollas.'"

"Not gonna happen," said Charles. "Carter goin' for the Diplomatic Solution."

"Just move into downtown Teheran?" said Scobie. "Just start another Viet Nam in the Mid East? We're still licking our wounds from one war, we're not about to start another. Like Charles says, Not gonna happen."

"Okay, okay," said Hugh. "The voice of reason. I still say we send in John Wayne and the Green Berets."

"John Wayne's dead," said Charles.

"Oh, right again," said Hugh. "And his girlfriend's writing her memoir. Well so much for that plan."

"How far you gonna back down that hole, crawdad?" said Dennis as he stood up.

"All the way to the bottom," said Hugh. "I am simply repeating what I hear over breakfast at Lucas B & B. The foreign policy experts there favor American diplomacy via F-14s and Huey helicopters."

"What would that solve?" said Rose. "What have guns ever solved?"

"Guns decided we would be an independent nation rather than a British colony," said Hugh. "Guns decided we would not own slaves in this country. Guns decided Hitler would not be king of the world. What's your opinion on the Iran situation, Dennis? Everybody has one."

"I think it's in God's hands," said Dennis.

"Amen," said Rose.

"Well then that settles it," said Hugh.

***

3. Dialogue with Helen Cariotis, Re. Review Coffee

Helen: Heck, I'd never throw perfectly good food at anyone.

I hope your subscribers come back, Tom. But I do understand the desire to rid oneself of stress, especially stress to the brain. But hey, that's life, isn't it?

Please clarify. Are you saying that the "bagel" was the discussion about whether Marines are crazed brutes or nice, normal husbands and fathers? Two subscribers left over that? Or that was just their final straw?

Tom: Ever so once in a while a subscriber bows out, with or without explanation. I feel a little guilty about the DFW USMC Families captive (courtesy Yahoo) audience. So when Carolyn brought back news from the Care-package assmbly line that some of you actually read this stuff, twas like a lapfull of Kreugerands.

Helen: Also, I am not real clear on what you want us to do. Are you seeking more comments on what has already been written?

Tom: Sometimes it's good to review where you've been. And there's some darn good writing there, too.

Helen: I don't know that I have much to add but I would like to relate an emotional moment I had recently. When I fly I always get a window seat and spend the time looking down at whatever I can see. Like a little kid (or a hick who never goes anywhere) I marvel each time at how big the mountains are, and how the rivers can make so many turns and loops. This time I flew to Boston and once again I was absorbed in just how magnificent our country truly is. It must be the most beautiful place on Earth!

And it struck me...hard....that no one was going to take that away from me. I will do whatever it takes to keep it. It is worth the fight. Kind of a silly realization but one I can't deny I had. Americans are not going to lose this war. It would be nice if everyone could get behind our President and support his efforts to clean the riff-raff off the planet, but we will do it without everyone being on the same page, if we have to.

By the way, if anyone wants to get to know some real men, not cry-babies or weaklings or dolts who live on entitlements, come on out and meet our Marines.

Semper Fi !!!

Tom: Your offering reminds me of Berry Goldwater's keynote address to the 1968(?) Republican Convention. He, too, was moved to patriotic feeling by the arial view of our landscape and expressed it eloquently.

Re. "No one is going to take that away from me": Back when our multi-trillion accumulated defecit was news, I asked an aide to Lloyd Bentsen what percentage of Treasury Notes issued to keep us afloat were owned by Japanese banks. He said he didn't know, but it was a lot... Of course one doesn't foreclose on one's best cutomer.

4. Bonnie Swank, Re. Snakes and Bears

The b. swank house of poetry offers the following bedtime story for the distraction and amusement of those still recovering from paying their taxes, taking exams and/or writing serious poetry. We would offer money but funny stories are all we've got in the bank at the moment. Warning: some portions of this incident may have been exaggerated for comic effect. No snakes, bears or raisinettes were harmed in the writing of this story.

Walking out at the nature center in the center of the week; I came across a 6-foot rattle snake (or perhaps he came across me.) He coiled up and rattled and I stepped back a few feet and said (according to the very reliable witness of my husband), "oh. snake." He was a very beautiful snake so I looked at him for a bit and finally walked round to the right while he slithered off to the left. It was spring, and so damp, and so i had slipped on the trail more than once becoming quite literally "up to my ass in mud." This bothered me for the first few minutes until I gave up on keeping clean and let myself take a child's pleasure in getting thoroughly mucked up.

Hike completed; we went by my sister's house to hose off my sneakers and borrow some clean pants. We arrived at a moment of high excitement; a rasinette had just been successfully removed from the nostril of my niece and everyone was still somewhat flushed with their success. They all had a good, hard laugh at my meeting with the snake (you may be wondering right now just what was so damn funny about it; but, be patient and I will tell you). They thought this was hilarious because it was markedly different from how I acted when I saw the bear.

My husband and I were camping in New Mexico near cimmaron canyon and we found a nice spot for the tent but I was concerned. It looked to me like just the kind of place that a bear might like to walk through, but my sweetie assured me that it was not. But still... I was going to have to sit alone while he drove several miles up the road to get ice and firewood. I felt nervous, what did I know about how to scare bears off? Make noise, yes, but what if that didn't work? I ended up by sitting in a camp chair with my back to a small clump of trees, holding a loaded 9mm pistol, lustily singing my repertoire of French cabaret songs while trying to read a New Yorker magazine to distract myself. I figured that, if the threat of my singing "Je Ne Regrette Rien" struck terror into the hearts of my loved ones it should be more than effective against wildlife.

In the end I was right about the bear. After dark, while we were toasting marshmallows, a very large grizzly bear came lumbering through (about 5 yards from our campfire) on his way to get a drink at the stream. According to my husband, my eyes (in a nice Grimm Brothers way) got as big as mill wheels (having started out by naturally being as big as saucers) and I did not say, "oh. a bear." In fact, I was rendered speechless (hard to imagine, i know) and when Sam asked if I was a little frightened; I replied, "frightened, I'm FUCKING TERRIFIED!!!? Being an exemplary husband, of course, he took me away to a motel in town whose only real amenity rested in the fact of it being bear-proof.

I close with this poem, my antidote for the more serious ones that I have been writing:

"oh, snake." i said,
up to my ass in mud.
happily,
raisinette removed.
everybody laughs at me.
clean jeans, borrowed from my sister.
but the bear
in mind, brings me to sing
lustily to firearms while reading
leftish magazine.
and when seen -
eyes like mill wheels
FUCKING TERRIFIED.
in the end i say:
i prefer a rattle snake
to a grizzly bear
any day.
***

1. Anita Rager: Re. Handful Coffee

My compliments to Helen! She thinks our fight is worth it and we should support the President also. Tom didn't publish my comments last week which were the same. Semper Fi, Anita

...

Oops, sorry I missed you. Nothing personal. My electronic work desk has 250 - 500 items on it at any given time, unread items indicated by Boldface. If Carolyn reads an item, Boldface pales & I may miss it. If Carolyn sends an item to Deleted folder & I send a Virus suspect there & then empty Deleted folder (as happens often) then only the FBI's Carnivore program can find it. If it shows up on Carolyn's separate-but-equal electronic work desk (courtesy Windows XP), then I won't see it unless she forwards it to mine, because all those half-naked stud-hunks on her screen saver - courtesy http://www.bikini.com - intimidate me.* And since Carolyn subfiles items for me that have been here long enough that surely I have read them... Carolyn & I are a team with only one competent member & it's obviosly not me. Feel free to scan your Sent folder & remail your comments. Siempre Piscando, Tom

2. Ginnie Bivona, Re: A neighbor's catalpa tree...

When I was a kid, back in Ohio, we had a huge old catalpa tree at the end of our driveway. I remember those fat white blossoms, and the long green "cigars" that festooned the tree all summer. It served as the base for a thousand summer night hide and seek games, long, lazy conversations with neighborhood kids, endless games of Monopoly, and later on a place to hide behind for a goodnight kiss, safe from my father's protective watch. He knew what evil lurked in the hearts of those nasty minded, lustful boys, and he was not about to let them get at his precious litle girl. So we kept our innocent kisses a secret behind that tree. As far as I know, it's still there, still dropping fat white flowers every Spring.

...

Right, and as summer moves on those green cigars blacken, split, and drop hard dark beans.

3. W. D. Timmerman, Re. A Visit From an Old Friend Who Now Lives in North Carolina (04-03-2004)

A mockingbird woke me up this morning.
Where we grew up in northwest Ohio,
the corn was so alive it almost sang to us.
Before you slept in a house unknown to you,
we looked at old high school yearbook photos
in a way that brought a few of the dead
back to life and took a few others down
a path of life you never imagined could've grown
out of a childhood built around a town called Lima.

We certainly look a lot different but how
we got here doesn't seem any more unusual
than how the mockingbird can't be quiet
or how the sun, the cool breeze, the blue sky
all remember weekends leading up to Easter.
Now a cardinal sings. The trees are alive
with a tale of shadows flying across
the backyard which, with you here in Texas,
could be us in North Carolina.
...

4. Drought Break

There I was in the madhouse again, the summer we remember as the one it didn’t rain so long the paper ran front page ads for the record-breaking Texas drought.

Every morning I’d stare into the hot sunrise through brown tinted shatterproof - Your brain finally tells you the crepe myrtle blooms seven stories down are really pink despite your tinted vision.

One day the clouds at last gathered low and dark and spat spare droplets on that mirrored barrier - So summer’s fever broke, and I watched my tears land and gather thick and run down what kept me from feeling

Rain.

...

*Bikini.com free screen-savers also include a bevy of females. Traditional pin-ups, good, clean fun. Ahem...

Okay, people, we've discussed two of the Not In Polite Company trinity: Religion and Politics. Do we have what it takes to discuss Sex with comparable good taste & consideration?

RSVP

El Coreo Electronico (the e-mail)

1. Anita Rager, Re. Siempre Piscando

Anita: "Always Fished"?

Tom: Oops! Siempre Pescando, then. Always Fishing.

Anita: You are a good fisherman...Keep on throwing your line out.

Tom: With your Espanol de la Universidad you will enjoy Part 3 of this issue:

...

2. Doggedely Political, Continued

Since I no longer feel threatened by the bizarre and incorrect views of the majority, I no longer feel the need to convert the benighted. :-D (The Mixer)

Don Hockady, Re. Handful of Coffee:

Helen Cariotis: "It would be nice if everyone could get behind our President and support his efforts to clean the riff-raff off the planet, but we will do it without everyone being on the same page, if we have to."

Don: Have you actually tried to understand contrary positions? Have you talked to people who disagree with you about the issues? Have you read other points of view? Do you even care about the other points of view? Is your point of view so "nice" the others are valueless?

"but we will do it without everyone being on the same page, if we have to."

If we can't "get on the same page," shall we burn the book? Who, by the way, is "we"? Sorry, but I don't know you; regardless of possible claims to the high ground, if you are in a position of authority, I would like to see it on the table. Otherwise, "I" am among "we."

I reach my hand to you across the chasm between, "Get behind our President" and "Get behind our military." An abrazo appears out of the question, but perhaps we can feel the fingertips touch ever so briefly. I am fully behind our Department of War and our Department of Homeland Defense. A call to "Get behind our President" is a plea for support of George W. Bush's entire agenda, using terrorism as a lever. Please accept without prejudice I consider, "Get behind our President" a focused, partisan political plea. It is, in my view,
programmed by professionals, as are all national political campaigns of all parties. I consider it sucker bait.

I doubt a page is possible on which we can agree on all issues. One might be constructed so those who care can at least understand the various points of view and respect at least many of them they oppose. We don't need a page for that; all we need is to care and try.
...

3. Not to change the Subject, But

Ginnie Bivona, Re. Do we have what it takes to discuss Sex with good taste & consideration?

Ginnie: Tom, What's to talk about? I gave up smoking by choice, drinking by force, and sex by default. The only vice I've got left is chocolate. You wanna talk about chocolate?

Tom: Funny you should mention. One of the sexiest Spanish teachers Ive ever had, una dama muy fuerta - machismo is nothing compares to the (pardon my Americanization) machisma of this lady de Ciudad Mexico. She overwhelmed me with a lecture en Espanol about her homeland - los poblanos (not "la gente," but the people of the national pueblo que es Mexico - & la idioma mexicana. Todos poblanos son iguales, &c. I understood half the words and the complete import. I absorbed it overnight.

Next day I brought a chunk of Chocolate Abuelita, (lotsa chocolate, lotsa cruncy sugar, lotsa cinnamon). We had mocha mexicana, while I pointed out that algunos poblanos indiginos were so happy with all the igualidad & hermano-hood en Mexico that they had bought ski masks and AK-47s para lo celebrar. She agreed that much she had said was pious wish. We talked about la frontera Brownsville/Matamoros for a while, and wound up in shared delight of the Hispanic brilliance of composer/singer Manu Chou, un hombre mas political!

"Welcome to Tijuana, / tequila, sexo, y marijuana. / Con el coyote no hay ayuduana [roughly, "With the feral, amoral border outlaw there's no Customs Department"].

Bienvenida Tijuana; Te no charla manana [something like: "No chit-chat for you tomorrow"].

Bienvenida mi suerte, bienvenida la muerte, por la panamericana ["Welcome my luck/fate, Welcome death, by... (I'm guessing) the unified spirit of south & central America"]. The import seems to be, "Welcome rich American tourist looking to get loaded & laid, we'd like to kill you."

Manu Chou is the master of sentimientos revueltos, scrambled sentiments. "Je n'aime plus mon amour" is one song title, and the refrain of another is "Mentira la verdad" [Lie the truth].

+++

CINCO DE MAYO, 2004

Tom,

Saw this letter in today's Morning News:

Please let it be known that Ted Koppel's actions in attempting to exploit the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq on Nightline Friday evening was disgusting.

Richard Scott, Plano

To which I replied:

Please let it be known that George W. Bush's prosecution of a war based on lies, faulty intelligence, and political opportunism which has so far cost the lives of over 700 U.S. servicemen is what's disgusting.

Ted Koppel's got nothing to do with it.

Sam Swank
Dallas, Tx.
(Guitar repairman with a message!!)
+++

2. Dick Sandlin, revisits Re. World War III

Hey, Tom!

It's been a while since my boss has been out of the office long enough for me to respond to any of the great discussions going on in cyberland. Sometimes I have to save up the postings for a couple of weeks and then have an orgy of reading mind ticklers. I kind of like it that way, actually.

I notice that you haven't been able to elicit much of a response to your sex teasers. You keep dropping enticing openings and noone seems to take the bait. Well, let me jump in with a modest cheer on the positive side. I vote "aye!" when it comes to sex. My sweet Lord was kind to me, as usual, in ways that zoomed entirely over my head at the time, when He sent a beautiful, sexy young lady to crash into me on her bicycle in front of the SUB at UTA about thirty years ago. I, being no fool this time, snatched her up and we have been having sex regularly ever since. While the definition of "regularly" has relaxed a bit over the years, going from many times a night to once or twice a week, we've still got it.

Like most men, and virtually all boys, I used to think that a variety of partners was the secret to bliss, but I was allowed to survive long enough to learn that there is no substitute for love. Yes, I mean real love, that sacrificial kind that God holds the universe together with. That kind that makes you want to do stupid things, like work as hard as you can to get some company to electronically transfer money into your lover's bank account every month so that she can build a nest and hatch plans for your life together. There is noone in our little solar system that can touch me like she does or make me feel more complete. Sex has been a huge part of our journey, but love is the gas that keeps the cylinders poping at full speed.

You may be asking yourself, "What has that got to do with World War III?" Well, nothing, of course. That is an entirely different topic that peaked my interest in the cybercomedy. Some folks were asking about supporting our president and supporting our troops.... I suppose that a few people might question whether it is appropriate to bring up World War III in this context. Actually, it is a symptom of our arrogance that we would consider the "Great War" as WWI and the "Great Patriotic War", as the Russians called it, to be WWII.

We're probably on about WWXII or so, if we considered Alexander the Great, the Romans, Hannibal, and all those guys as they really should be considered. Who knows how many, if we were able to recover the lost history that goes back beyond a few thousand years, beyond all those Chinese dynasties and everything. I can only assume that one of those wars was so thoroughly destructive that it wiped out all preceding human history.

I suspect that future historians will debate about whether WWIII started with Gulf War I, the Desert Storm, or perhaps it began when Kosivo happened (which was really a continuation of WWI, with the ArchDuke Ferdinand and all) . Surely, everyone will agree that it was in progress by 9/11/2001, or at least by Gulf War II.

The real question that I am interested in is, "When will it end?". Will we be going into Iran soon? How about Syria? Syria has always seemed like a more deserving target to me than Iraq. The Syrians have openly supported terrorism (that is what we call the enemy in WWIII) since 1948. Libya has seen the light at the end of the barrel recently and announced that it is withdrawing from WWIII. Can this be permitted? Clearly we should reward them for making a move, but will Israel recognize their "King's-X" attempt?

The major problem that the "Allies" have faced so far, it seems, is a lack of participation. I am reminded of that great poster from the past, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" Is it possible that we could have a World War without help? Tony Blair has been our staunch friend, but has England's aid caused India to turn against us? Perhaps the CIA should be quietly distributing copies of "The Mouse that Roared" throughout the Middle East.

Oops, I'm out of time.

Regards, Dick

+++

3. Speaking of Passion & Politics, Helen Cariotis responds to Don Hockaday's fervid attempt to ameliorate her political views (OFF-BOARD COFFEE)

LET'S NOT FIGHT COFFEE

1. Sam Swank offers an And What's More:

Tom,

Sorry about that.

I should point out that our only President's WMD fiasco, the Valerie Plume (outing the identity of a CIA agent) fiasco, the allowing the Enron CEO to write energy policy, shuttling the Bin Laden family out of the U.S in the week after 9-11, and tarnishing the legacy of a decorated war hero, when Bush couldn't even show up for National Guard meetings every now & then - all are noteworthy, but they still don't rise to the level of a shady
real estate deal several years before a President took office.

I mean, I need to stay rational!

Love,
Sam
+++

Sam -

Ooookaaaayyy... Love. You need to develop a little compassion for a fellow fallible human being who for all his faults seems, to me at least, a sincere Christian who wants to do the right thing. Also, as best I can tell, Dubya has an admirable sense of history and his place in it. Clinton had a sense of history, too. He wanted to be a second JFK, it appeared. But a Rhodes Scholarship added pride rather than polish to a fast talking gambler's kid from Arkansas who wanted to make it with the high school floozy behind the barn. One simply must admire Reynard, he's a charming fellow, but...

I don't know, Helen, what sort of canine represents Bush? A young Labrador trying to play German Shepherd? Certainly not a Saint Bernard, but neither is he the Rotweiler with a pedigree Sam wants to make of him.

2. Helen says a word or two about the flat of the Swank blade.

Dear Mr. President - Here in Texas, its still an election year. - Tom McClellan

Re. Presidential Coffee

1. Ginnie Bivona

Tom Wrote - "I'm tired our Republican elite President behaving like a Haliburton employee, especially as regards the environment and, in matters of public policy as regards rich vs. poor, proving his Compassionate Conservatism no better than a cheap con. 'Scuse me, expensive con."

Amen, my friend! GB

+++

2. Becky Myerson

I do not think him a cheap con. Still some decisions I do not agree with as I stated before. Bush is not the bearer of all things evil in the political realm.

Remember that the technology has been around a long time that would provide feul efficient vehicles that rely less on foreign oil, alternate ways to provide electricity and such to help with the environment etc etc etc, but it has been more than the Bush admin that has not acted upon the existing knowlege. It all boils down to money & power no matter which side of the political fence you find yourself on.

I for one think that the $$$ Bush wants to send to Africa for help with their AIDS epidemic should be kept here at home. I probably sound uncaring and I dont mean to. I just believe there are folks here in our country that need the help, and of course for our environmental issues, and not to mention the deficit that needs addressing.

Beck

...

[Becky - I don't think Bush is either cheap or a con, nor did I say that. Cheap? He has all the self-assurance & cultivation that money and power can buy. I do believe that his claim to be a Compassionate Conservative has been proved - in matters of public policy, not in matters of personal charity - an empty sales pitch.]

+++

3. Robin Glynn

Becky Myerson said: "We are in a time of war, no matter what our differences are we should stand united, our country should pull together."

I think we are united. We may disagree about the President's decisions, but nobody I know is ripping up their citizenship papers and running off to a foreign country, yet :o) What is your definition of united? That we all agree? Even in my small family we have to learn how to "agree to disagree" on all kinds of topics. The most recent being whether Texas should allow gambling. I vote no, my husband votes yes. I don't, however, consider my husband and I divided, not for one moment. I do not think of my country as divided. I suppose you could get that idea if you listened to a lot of news programs that like to make up controversy. The people I know hate the war (because war is horrible), support the troops and have varied thoughts about what the president is doing. You write, "as things resolve explore change", I don't think anyone is planning a coup. I do think people are thinking about whether or not there needs to be a change in the oval office and that is our responsibility as citizens of the USA.

+++

4. Sam Swank

A. Re. John Caudill's remarks

What is with this guy Swank?

I am an American citizen that is very dissatisfied with the decisions that our President has made. As such, I am fully endowed with the right to state this to anyone anywhere whether they agree with me or not.

Hate? No. Don't trust? Yes. Embarrased by? Yes. Angry with? Extremely! Love to bash? Hardly. I'd love one single reason to think of this President as anything other than a politically opportunistic hypocrite.

The same day that congress passed the "Support Our Troops" proclamation, they cut veteran's benefits. Is that your idea of support?

When the current scandal plays out, the grunts in the prison are going to get the lion's share of blame and the higher ups that gave them the directives are going to walk scott-free. I'd be willing to wager some money on that.

Is that "supporting" the troops?

How does having a problem with the decisions of the President mean that I don't support the troops on the ground over there? It doesn't. You know it doesn't. The fact that over 700 servicemen have died for what I consider to be a misguided, poorly thought out, poorly executed, and politically motivated war makes me as mad as hell!

Everyone that says this to me never seems to have much sorrow for the dead, they seem more troubled that it is a P.R. snag for their "teflon" President. So they take it out on people like me with this "overjoyed at defeat" tripe. It simply doesn't fly.

All of this whining, digging his toe in the sand and squirting piss are doing no good for anyone.

Whining? Squirting piss? As opposed the the mature, rational discourse that you have chosen to engage me with?

Good job Mr. Caudill. You really put me in my place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to find an anti tank gun & some Iraqi troops with whom I can pose for a photo op.

B. Re. Betty Myerson's characterization of "the leftest elite who look down their noses at anyone that would dare to disagree with them, as if we are unable to reach the lofty understanding of a liberal."

The methodology of conservative dialogue has become very familiar to me, it's why I listen to AM talk radio, read columns by childish journalists like Ann Coulter, and watch insufferable jerks like Sean Hannity and Bill O'Rielly on TV, so that I can keep my finger on the pulse of these so-called "right thinking" Americans.

They have two main tactics: question my patriotism and subsequently my "support for the troops", or dismiss me as a member of the "liberal elite." The first makes me want to throw things, the second makes me laugh.

I am a 42 year old guitar player. I never finished college. I drive a battered 10 year old Honda Civic. I have a few thousand dollars to my name, and if I sold everything I own, I'd have a few thousand more.

Though I frequently respect their stances, I do not belong to Greenpeace, Amnesty International, MoveOn.org, or any group that condones abortion while willing to fall on the sword to prevent the electrocution of chinchillas.

I just purchased the latest Loretta Lynn album, and am enjoying it tremendously.

I claim no real or imagined intellectual "superiority" to those that disagree with me.

The term "liberal elite", to my mind, conjures up images of someone who finished their graduate work at, say, Brown university, has suede patches on their cordeuroy jacket, and plays croquette with Tom Hayden & Vanessa Redgrave. I do not feel that I belong to this group.

I do see an awful lot of people in this town that clearly make anywhere from low six figures to millions a year. They drive Hummers or upper-line BMW's, and graduated from, say, SMU. These folks are a lot more accomplished academically and professionally than I am. Yet a lot of these people still seem to have some kind of inferiority complex that causes them to toss around the "liberal elite" label whenever reasoned discussion becomes irksome.

For example when asked directly, "How does it make you feel to know that all of the reasons given for going to war in Iraq have since been proven to be totally specious?" they answer: "You're part of the liberal elite, you don't support our troops, and you hate America".

Or perhaps I ask, "What if you found out that Ken Lay, the CEO who presided over one of the largest corporate scandals in this country that bilked thousands of people out of hundreds of millions of dollars, was sitting in the White House helping Dick Cheney write the current energy policy?" Their answer? "You don't know that's true." That's right, I don't. The administration has guarded the names of those involved all the way to the Supreme Court.

When it's a president's sexual escapades with an intern, only then does it become a matter of grave national concern and an impeachable offense.

So I don't claim to know everything, I just ask questions. Fairly simple questions that a lot of us already know the answer to. This is obviously troubling to a lot of people who just want to stand behind the current administration at any cost. If that makes me part of the "liberal elite", I don't know what to tell you.
+++

5. Jose Cruz

And a big hurrah to sister Becky. You hit the nail on the head. We(our nation) is at war. This is not the time to second guess our President(commander in chief) and the military carrying out the mandate that CONGRESS gave him.

Yes, this is starting to look like Vietnam. The politicians want to direct the war and they don't know their butts from that of a rifle. We need to let the soldiers doing the fighting finish their job and not second guess their actions, nor deny them our support. From one who has been there, war is hell. This is not a Sunday school picnic and the enemy doesn't care about public opinion.

Unfortunately we do. If I were to give President Bush some advice, I would tell him to stay the course and remind the American public about 911, lest we forget.

Jose Cruz
an American with a capital A.
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6. Don Hockaday, Re. Let's Get Together and Collie

Way back when, Helen Cariotis wrote: "It would be nice if everyone could get behind our President and..."

Don responded: "Have you actually tried to understand contrary positions?..."

Helen replied: "I 'lived' the contrary position for many years. I was very liberal, even leftist. I was anti-VietNam war, and pro-civil rights..."

Dear Helen, The common ground is soft, but at least there is some. There are hundreds of thousands who actively protested the Viet Nam war who are now liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican, for and against the way George W. Bush took us to the war in Iraq. Never run for office; you will be persecuted for the fact you protested any war even by many who protested beside you.

You side-stepped the questions of whether you try to understand contrary positions on current politics or if you equate "Get behind our President" and "Get behind our Military." No matter; I think this discussion is over. Lets talk about dogs.

Helen again: "But if pressured, I'd say our Prez is a border collie. Intense work ethic, always rounding up the strays, nipping at the heels of the underlings to keep them on course, not particularly open to outsiders, possessing a desire for order, and enjoying the work just because it is work. But since I don't know him personally, I could be wrong."

Helen, I have always avoided 'What kind of dog would..." sort of games. In this case, you apparently know dogs very well and I immediately snapped to your analogy.

I like border collies, although I never owned one. They just never fit my needs at the time. I am in complete agreement with every one of the characteristics you list, plus I respect their dedication to purpose, ability to react an instant before a perceivable cue. George Bush is very much like that, and I respect him for it.

I will not prosecute the purpose for which they are bred, but their effectiveness is astounding.

Don Hockaday
South Padre Island, TX
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Becky Meyerson, Re: LONG, LONG COFFEE

Asking questions is fine, and expected in our society. For the record, Bettye Meyerson was my mom. How did you get Betty Myerson?

[Sorry, Becky. My bad]

Anyway...Regarding conservative spin, do you not see the liberal spin these days? Regarding reasons for war proving false, time will tell. After Sept 11, having a presence in the Middle East is not a bad thing. I'd rather the fight be over there than here. I really believe it was time America stood up and said "No more" with regard to Middle East, again especially after Sept 11th. The fanatics do not recognize anything else but brute force. Spain caved, what did it get them..?

I do not back this Administration at any cost, I believe there is more going on right than not. I believe in the idea, and that is what any of this boils down to - one's belief and what we each want for our country.

But the truth remains, liberals look down their noses at conservatives:

Sam Swank: "I read columns by childish journalists like Ann Coulter, and watch insufferable jerks like Sean Hannity and Bill O'Rielly on TV, so that I can keep my finger on the pulse of these so-called 'right thinking' Americans."

I rest my case.

By the way, I put the term out "elitist liberals" in general based on what I see in our country today, I do not recall aiming that term at anyone of you. If we disagree does that make the term apply? I suppose that depends on how we handle the disagreement, yes?

I find it interesting that when someone has a differing opinion, people react to it vehemently. They fight and argue and rant about their rights. As if our country exists to serve them only. Need I quote President Kennedy.

As to being our Nation being divided. I will share my example of "divided" . When a news program claims the right to show pictures on TV worldwide that inflame the Arab world and thereby result in revenge on not only our troops, but our civilians --that just floors me . Now do not get me wrong, the abuses need to be taken care of and made certain not to happen again; just not in view of the entire world.

I have to take a serious look around at my government, and all of its branches especially in these days when prisoners rights supercede those of our own people abroad, when "under God" is being questioned as to whether or not it is constitutional to say in the Pledge of Allegience, and when Judges lose their positions because they wish to 10 commandments to be left in place in their courtrooms. When prayer is kept out of our schools but studies of Islam are part of many a school's cirriculum. That is what I mean about divided. Our rights are in place and sacred until they infringe on those of another. I understand the dichotomy of using religion as the example still, when is too far--too much?

As to agreeing to disagree, Agreeing to disagree is polite way to handle things. In my "sends" to Tom ,who has always been nothing but kind to me, even when we disagree, I have tried to be polite as well.

Having said all of that, I still believe we in the USA have the best thing going in the world today, in our society we can disagree. Coup d' etat...that is extreme, silly to use regarding my "sends"... People get extreme when passions run high. Still the upside to this is that passions run high because we all care and that is why we will survive. We want the same thing, we just come at it from different places.

Becky Meyerson

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Well said!