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Make Sure Your Eyes are Wide Open
If you are contemplating buying a truck from Larry Zeigler, aka ONEZMAN, aka The Z-Man. I encourage you to do your homework
and, if you elect to buy, do so with your eyes wide open. I have created this page so that nobody ever goes through the trauma
that I did. Looking back, I am amazed that I didn't kill myself, someone in my family, or some poor unfortunate person
in the wrong place at the wrong time.
There's a lot of text on the page, but I think it's necessary to really convey the entire story. Why am I doing
this? Good question. In October of 2006, it would have been out of anger. Generally anger is not a good motivation and it's
taken that long to get it out of my system and make sure that the motivation for doing this is positive, not out of revenge.
If someone ever buys one of these trucks and kills somebody, I wouldn't be able to live with myself. This allows me to sleep
at night. The story has to be told.
I have tried to remove as much emotional content as I can. That has proven to be a much more difficult task that
I imagined and has tested my "walk" on a number of occasions. I don't know how long it will take to complete this page, but
I will get it done, I have to.
UPDATE: Oct 2007 - It seems that the Z-Man is back in business. His web site says he has two unhappy
customers. These would be DIYGuy, 2BTravlin, Jxxxxxxxxx, Sxxxxxxx, Gxxxxxx, Fxxx, and Bxxxxxx, if you assume that all of his
unhappy customers were at one rally and all actively post in the Escapees HDT forum.
He also has a long paragragh on title jumping and how he doesn't title jump, but sells his own truck privately. Unless
it says Larry Zeigler on the title that he signs over to you, it is title jumping in all 50 states.
Chronology
This story has taken over a year to unfold. The chronological approach is the only one that makes sense to tell
it. Words that are a direct quote from email from Larry are in italicized blue text. Words that are a direct quote from email
I sent to Larry are in italicized red text. Typo's in the originals are left unfixed. I want to make sure that it is as accurate
as I can make it.
Many claims have been made back and forth in the Escapees HDT forum with respect to my truck. This page is the only way
I have to collect all the facts that I have at my disposal, organize them into a cohesive story, and place
them into the public domain. Where I have been able, I have included direct quotes from those forums using the same quoted
text standards that I have used for email.
First Contact: September 2005
In september of 2005, I sent my first email to Larry. After a brief
exchange, the deal was formally initiated on tuesday, 9/27/05:
Dear Mr. Zeigler,
After reading all I can about your conversions from your site and other forums. I'm ready
to send you a deposit. I have been able to answer all of my questions from yesterday's email to my satisfaction.
So, how long is your backlog, when can I send a deposit, and is it possible to have a rig
by May '06?
Mark,
I can have a conversion for you by May of 06. I don't accept deposits until I actually have a truck
that you approve of to convert. I will put you on my listbut first I have to know what you want. Then when its your turn,
you have first right to take it or pass on it. If you tell me a good time to call, Ill call you then.
The wait for truck began...Throughout the months of September, October, November, December, we had a number of quite cordial
email conversations on 610 vs. 770. Hitch selection, how clean the cab would be and so forth. Typical of these exchanges:
Good Morning Larry,
Autoshift is not necessary, just nice to have. Super10 would be fine.
A non smoking rig is pretty high up on the list of priorities for us. This will be our daily
driver, and where we'll spend a significant amount of time over the 1st 3-5 years. If we need to wait a while to find
one, then we'll wait. If it costs a little more, then it costs a little more.
I didn't realize that the air hitch was that expensive. I notice most of your conversions
use what looks like the standard trailer hookup.
I've read that the weight of the 5ver is too light to "use" the rear suspension of the unit
and the home gets shocked with out an air hitch. Your thoughts on shock and hitch height.
Thanks,
Mornin Mark,
I have probably only had maybe 3 trucks that haven't been smoked in.
I have the entire interior shampooed twice. New seats can be installed so there is really no noticable
remaining odor. Most of my customers prefer non smoking trucks, but only one mentioned he could smell it when he first got
into the truck. After a couple of minutes, he didnt notice it anymore. He didn't have new seats either.
I read about one guy who took down all the fabric had it dry cleaned or something like that. Smelled
brand new after that.
I an not recommending it, butI have towed two different travel trailers of mine more than 30 K
miles combined using the factory. I did this using at least 10 different conversions. I had no problems.....but I was very
careful!!! Two years ago I installed a Trail Air hitch on my Travel Supreme. They cost less than $1,000 and they work just
fine.
99% of my customers buy the truck with the factory hitch remaining. It's up to them whether they
change to an air ride hitch, or install a Trail Air. I recommend the Trail Air. Personally, I would never change the Factory
hitch. There is no stronger hitch made. The factory hitch is normally about 46" high from the top of the hitch to the ground.
None have been higher than 48".
Regards,
In any case, it's pretty clear from the get go that we were concerned about the cleanliness of the truck.
We Got A Truck: February 2006
On Saturday February 11 2006, we got this little gem of an email:
Subject: I Have a 770 Autoshift for you!
Finally!. You are first on my list. I have an 02 autoshift for you, if you want it.
You can tell which one it is on the link below. I would appreciate knowing if you want it
by Monday. I have others waiting. Price will be $51.900 when completed in 30 t0 40 days.
Larry had a link in his email with a few pictures. I looked over the pictures and had a few minor concerns:
It looks good. I do have a couple of questions. The unit looks like it has front end damage. The air dam has a
chunk out of it. The hood doesn't line up with the body panels, and the skirt doesn't line up with the hood.
I like the full fairings, I like it being a 2002.
Does 51,900 include repair to the front skirt?
All in all, I'd say YES!
Give me a call so we can chat about the front end.
Larry called and we spoke about the front end and the list of items from his website about what a conversion
entails and what he does. Since then, some of the wording on his website has changed. Most notable is that "no active faults"
has been changed to read "no active engine faults". His response to me after our phone call:
Per our conversation today:
I'll fix all that stuff. $51,900 does include all repairs. 2002 VNL 64T 770 Autoshift. Vin # 4V4NC9THX2N328765.
Address to send the $1K personal check deposit:
So a deposit check went out in the mail to a campsite just outside of Dallas Fort Worth. Note that
body damage was talked about early on, before money changed hands and by his own words, would be repaired.
In mid-February, the logistics of getting the rig home are the topic of conversation. I was concerned
with the legality of driving it home with out having it registered as a motorhome. I started with a simple question...
Should I plan for a pick up around April 10th? Do I bring plates with me?
I can have her ready by the end of March. Anyime between then and the 10ths is fine. You can't get plates without the title. I loan all my customers a legal MH plate to get home with. I give each
customer 2: "Private RV, Not For Hire" signs. You won't be stopping at any scales.
None of my customers have ever been chased or stopped either.
A legal MH plate, perfect. Answers all the questions.
Picking Up the Truck: March 2006
In early march I made plans to pick it up. The original plan was
for the 28th of March, however, I had commitments in MA on April 1st, so time was set up in this exchange that took place
on 3/13/06:
Sorry I haven't contacted you over the last week. Things got a little crazy here.
I have to be in MA on April 1. So, I can come down on the 23rd if that works for you and head back on the 25th
or so. If I have to stay a little longer, this isn't a problem.
I can make final payment out of a checking account, or I can bring a certified bank check with me.
It will be close,
but I can have it ready.
I sent Larry this email two days later to confirm the payments as he requested:
Hi Larry,
I sent a flight itinerary from Travelocity.
$51,900 $1,000 Deposit, $2,900 Cash, $48,000 Cashiers Check Payable to Larry Zeigler
See you Thursday afternoon.
OK Mark,
Catch a shuttle to La Quinta Inn DFW airport West in Euless TX. It's close to DFW. Free shuttle.
There is a Home Depot right behind it. I'll meet you in their parking lot. The La quinta inn parking
lot is pretty small. Give me qa call when you get off the plane.
First Meeting
The flight was uneventful and I took the free shuttle to La Quinta. There in the Home Depot parking lot was a big red
truck. All shiny, looking large. As I get closer, I notice that the red paint is blotchy and that the front tire has a good
number of chunks out of it. I climb in and notice a slight cigarette smell, and a really filthy carpet.
Larry and I spend a day teaching me to drive, mostly with me following him around to various truck places while we get
a few of the broken things on mine taken care of before I leave for MA and to pick up parts for a few other conversions he
is working on.
Right off the bat I notice a front end shimmy. Larry says he can't feel it and that he did have a wheel bearing tightened.
At 60mph, the shimmy is violent, Larry says he never got it up on the highway. I feel what can only be described as a bowling
ball bouncing against the floor boards everytime I hit a bump on the left side.
The oil guage doesn't work, Larry says it was fine before he replaced the diagnostic display and has no idea why it went
bad, but his local Volvo guy says a new dash board display is $1400, plus labor to install. So Larry gives me a cheap mechanical
oil guage and tells me he didn't have time to install it.
The shimmy and the oil guage are the two things I really notice and I agree to take $750 back at the time of purchase
to compensate me for those two things.
While driving it around that day, it gets to a point where it will not shift out of 3rd. No idea what I'm doing wrong,
Larry can't explain what I've done, and shutting it down and starting it back up makes the problem go away. This is attributed
to my bad newbie driving.
Braking! Man does it take a long time to stop one of these. When I ask Larry about it, he tells me that these are big
heavy trucks and I have to get use to the stopping distance, besides a lot of my slowing down should be done by downshifting
the transmission in manual mode.
Then comes the hairy part, I ask about insurance on the MH plate. No answer. The bill of sale and title paperwork is
handled at the garage that cut the frame. The guy at the desk just inside the door signs on the line as representative of
Don Baskin Truck Sales. Larry says he can't sign it because the signatures would match on the other paperwork. I have come
to know that this is called title jumping.
So here I am in TX, with a bill of sale from Don Baskin Truck sales, a plate of unknown legality. While I'm driving home
with one plate, Larry is driving another truck with the exact same plate on it. Who knows what a registration check of the
plate would actually show. No receipt from Larry Zeigler.
Time to drive home. I hit rain, snow, and see three camper accidents, one really nasty one that I get to use Ch. 9 on
the CB for first time in my life.
Once Home
Finally, I pull into the driveway...Larry and I remained cordial and began to work through some of the unexpected issues.
On the 31st of March, 2006, I sent Larry an email. The next day he responded.
Replies below,
Did your plate show up? UPS says you signed for it on 3/29.
Yep. got it. Thanks.
I thought it might be the collision system, so I unplugged it all. It was all unplugged when
I got the tones yesterday. I have a user manual for the transmission system, but it doesn't make any reference to the
tones. Even the little one that says "No I won't shift". It's not missing any shifts and I'm not concerned about it,
just trying to understand. No active faults, no service lights, just an occasional 3 tone warble.
Dont know how or why but thats the same tone I got from the anti collision system. It was 3 tone
as well so I suspect somehow it still activates??
The top bunk was advertised as a platform, it's really a hamock. In an earlier exchange, I had asked if it was solid.
The top bunk never crossed my mind. The 770 I have now is the same way.
I have the curtains installed. It goes into the frame shop for front end alignment and high speed
wheel balancing on all six wheels next Wednesday. My local guy, used to be the suspension guy at the local Mack/Volvo/Cummins
dealer. His old boss now runs the garage at a frame alignment and wheel shop. I've used the local guy to weld stuff
on my tractor and work on my freightliner van for a few years now.
Larry had some questions on the phone with respect to the wheel shimmy and how qualified were "my people"...
Let me know what he finds.
As soon as it gets out of the frame shop, it goes to the fabricator for hauler rear bumper,
then to the body shop to fix the driver side skirt, all of the patches fell off on the way home.
Does that mean the body shop I used did a less than half assed job????
I had posted on Escapees HDT concerning my variable transmission alarms. It was really disconcerting to hear an alram obviously
meant to get my attention and have no idea what it was trying to tell me.
Read your transmission post Mark. If anything were wrong, the "service" light would be on on the transmission
console, and and the display would show an active fault.
I suspect the alarm is connected to the Eaton anti collision device.
Still, a fairly cordial exchange ...
I started taking the truck to few places to get minor things done, thinking that they weren't all that bad. Everytime
I got somewhere I got the feeling that the newbie was about to go for a ride. Afterall, I got a Z-Man truck, the pick of the
litter, but each repair bill was way more than I expected...
I slowly came around to the idea that the truck might be in worse shape than I thought.
Repairs, Repairs, and More Repairs
Once it got to the heavy truck frame shop, the full extent of the shimmy became known. Bad shakle pins (all 4). Two bad
front tires. One bad front wheel bearings.
I sent this email on April 10:
Hi Larry,
So far, it’s been to three shops for estimates and analysis.
What I know:
Front tires are just plain bad. They need to be replaced before any alignment or
balancing can be done.
The Driver’s side wheel bearing is shot. When it was tightened, it simply hid
how bad it was. The spring place recommended it be towed to the garage rather than driven. (I drove it to my local shop
without a problem)
The right front shackle bushing is shot. It’s being replaced this week. This
is the heavy thunk you can feel in the floor boards on the passenger side.
Next Up:
It’s in the shop today for a wheel bearing and shackle work. They will measure
the spindles and make sure that they are not worn/bent. I’ll have it back from them on Thursday.
It’s goes in next Monday for tires. I’m going replace all six just to make
sure that I don’t have any lingering tire issues. I’ll get it back from them on Tuesday. I need to spend
a week in NY with it in early May.
Once I get the front end fixed, then I can get the transmission programmed and the
gauges done. If I can get a schematic of the cluster, I should be able to fix it as long as it isn’t a surface mounted
IC component that’s bad. I may be able to pull it and send it back to Volvo to have it refurbished.
The interior build out is coming along, I have the bed parts done, I’ll install
them this coming weekend. I have the dinette table made.
It too, will be installed this weekend. I have all of my inverter parts and wiring,
I should have it all installed in two weeks.
The website is being updated and stays pretty current with the whole project. www.RVNomad.com
I spent l day yesterday cleaning the inside. Got about ½ of it done.
I’m off the Volvo this afternoon to pick up a few cosmetic parts.
I’ll keep you updated.
I'm sorry to hear about your problems. The mechanic that tightened the WB did not tell me it was
bad. I would have had it changed. They aren't even expensive. Bad wbs can cause all sorts of problems.
The guy who serviced the truck, nor the guy who did the DOT inspection at a diffferent shop didn't
notice anything either. It's always something. My apologies.
For the next two months, the truck has a fault per week. Transmission solenoid, engine speed sensor, another engine sensor,
then a front brake failure.
2006 East Coast HDT Rally
At the east coast HDT rally, I ran into the Red Volvo 770 that was delivered by Larry a few weeks before mine. The side
skirts are falling off, it too has an air locked mid differential, and it too was absolutely filthy. On top of that, these
folks have had major engine issues, and major transmission issues. At this point I'm still giving Larry the benfit of the
doubt and explain it away that he got hold a few bad sub-contractors and doesn't realize how bad a job they are doing. The
other owner has given up any hope of getting Larry to be responsible for the issues that he has. Seeing another truck with
as many problems at gives them somebody to commiserate with.
Side Skirts and Other Repairs
The side skirts, transmission failures, and other unexpected repairs cost over $2000 to repair.
I haven't written sooner as the truck is consuming all of my time. It's been in
and out of the shop almost continuously since I got home.
There have been a few more issues since I last wrote.
One of the side skirts partially fell off before I could get it repaired. I've ordered new ones
and have a shop lined up to have them painted. I'll install them. $985 parts (skirts, and a few of the mounting bits)
The final bill on the front end shimmy was $1590. The WB wasn't that expensive, it was the shackle
pins and bushings that were stupid expensive, and the amount of time it takes to do all four of them.
I had a broken cab frame mount welded at the same time. (They did that for free, given that they
built the bumper)
The bad front tires were $700 after casing credit.
The engine computer was password protected. Had to be cleared out and reprogrammed by Cummins.
The drive shaft spline is worn/loose. It can wait for a little while. Needs to be replaced as it
has a vibration depending on spline alignment when power is applied. I can jiggle the accelerator and get it be minimized
at most speeds. $975
Broken upper window hinge and slide. $37
And the biggie, that time it wouldn't come out of gear in the parking lot down there in Dallas
was the early sign of clutch solenoid failure. The reason there weren't any transmission faults is that the transmission isn't
recording any faults. It died on the way home yesterday. I could get it start and get as far as 5th, but that's as high as
it would go, and as soon as it gets warm it stops shifting altogether. I avoided a tow by driving 1/2 way there on back roads,
parking, working on paperwork in the cab until it cooled down, then finishing the trip to the dealer. Fortunately the dealer
is less than 30 minutes from my house. I'm also on a first name basis with the Parts guy, the computer guy, and the service
manager.
The known parts are $365, the known labor is $276 ( 3 hr. @ 92 per) They don't know what it will
take to fix the computer until they pull it apart.
We're going to the HDT rally next week as long as they can get it fixed.
On the plus side, Oil Guage, fixed for under $800. The console is actually 3 circuit boards and
you can replace then individually. You don't need the entire panel.
All of the dash lights are fixed. I have installed an inverter and finished running the interior
wiring. The furniture is coming along nicely. I have installed the rigid bed, the table, and will have the fridge, MV, TV,
DVD all mounted by next week.
I don't know if this is normal or not, but the repair budget disappeared a long time ago. I have
no idea if I'm at the end of the repair road or just starting out.
Thoughts?
After several phone calls, Larry did agree to send me $500 to help offset the expense. I received the check and cashed
it.
2006 National HDT Rally Wichita, KS
I was lucky enough to hook up with another HDT guy on the way down to KS. He lets me drive his truck for a little bit
so I can experience a manual transmission. The first time I touch the brakes, I launch the poor guy off of the passenger seat
and into the dash. His brakes are far more touchy than mine. I begin to think that my brakes might be suspect, at least need
a service.
Once at the truck rally, I run into a set of folks from NH, about an hour north of me. They have an identical red 2002
Volvo 770. After a conversation about my brakes, he offers to let me drive his to the shop where he's getting a little work
done. Even though I was ready for a "better" pedal, I still turn the first stop sign into a panic stop.
It's decided, tomorrow I have to make an appointment for the truck. The next moring there is an early session at Doonan's
on the VIS-Check machine. We decide to run it through that first. The results of that had me start a thread on the Escapees
HDT forum called: "The Power of a VIS-Check"
If you haven't had a VIS-Check done, I strongly encourage you to do so. They cost about $260.
They measure the effectiveness of your brake system and do a complete shake test identifying and loose or worn suspension
component.
I had one done here at the HDT rally. My truck was not safe on the road until this afternoon, when I removed
it from the road. Several others have found other problems that I won't identify. They may post their results as time permits.
For more details on my VIS Check report, I have a page on my website here -> Vis-Check Results
Many comments followed on the thread. Several folks had only minor issues, others had expensive issues identified and
fixed. Mine was one of two recent Larry conversions to go through the process. The other truck had some worn front suspension
components identified. Here are a few of the comments (in green) from others:
---------
Thanks to the VIS check, the king pins, aux., drive seals, rear shocks, dryer filter, and an
air fitting are being replaced. Saved two steer tires in the process. Money well spent. Haven't got the bill yet. They are
adding a couple toys tomorrow.$$$$$.
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"Once is Happenstance. Twice is Coincidence. The third time it's Enemy
action"
From reading Mark's web site, his issues are way beyond bad luck or simple errors.
This is a great thread
for prospective HDT owners!! 
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Mark:
As I recall Kenny said that VIS checks for the rally were $100.
Required repairs would be an additional cost.
After the $100 post was made above, I added the following to the thread.
Yes, we got a great deal here at the rally, but when listing prices for
the world to see, I always post retail for an apples to apples comparision.
I'm waiting for a few communications to
complete and then the full specifics of my situation will be documented.
The thought I want to convey to everybody
is that I was driving a truck under the complete delusion that it was safe. Somebody could have been killed here. As we proceeed
down the infancy of the conversion process, we have an obligation to be safe. We already know that overloaded towing can be
deadly, that's why we drive these things. Please, let's not trade one bad situation for another. Let's all drive safe trucks.
Get
a VIS-Check, drive with confidence.
One of the communication that I was waiting for was a response to an email that I sent Larry.
This is that email sent while at the rally on 10/5/2006.
Hi
Larry,
Attached are a few photos. I had a VIS check done on the truck
this week. I thought that brakes were soft when I picked up the truck and you assured me that they were good and that I had
to learn how to drive the big rig.
I
now know differently.
The
rear brakes on my 770 were disconnected. The air feed on the treadle valve body (foot pedal valve on firewall) was plugged
with a brass plug, the line to the proportioning valve was cut both under the hood and at the valve body.
I
have been driving this truck for over 6000 miles with defective brakes. I live at the top of a steep hill. If I had
hit someone, I would have killed them. How could you sell a truck with this level of defect? Anger does not begin to cover
the emotions that I’ve been going through the last few days.
Here’s what you need to do.
Post on escapees asking all of your
customers to inspect their treadle valves.
Have them stop driving their trucks
until they are certain that they have operational brakes.
Give the full working name and address
of the company you used to single the truck and work on the brakes.
Agree to reimburse any truck found this
way for expenses to fully restore the brakes to original operational condition. (In my case this is air lines, brake shoes,
proportioning valve, ABS module)
Anything short of this is unacceptable
and will force me to pursue other options. You must acknowledge this email by 10/10/06, you must respond publicly by 10/12/06.
Mark Shelley
The forum thread continued.
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The variation between used HDT's is considerable, so it is very important that you do everything
you possibly can to verify the condition of the vehicle before you plunk down cash. OB770 is a 2000 Volvo 770 with 606,000
miles on it. I had the VIS check done yesterday and the only issue found was a greater than desired braking differential on
the front axle. It was within specs, but not as good as it should be. The technician fixed the problem at no charge by simply
adjusting the slack adjusters. I know of others here at the rally who have had no issues found in their trucks.
Mark,
through no fault of his own, has had more problems than anyone should have or expect. Read all you can here on the forum,
talk to people who own these rigs, have every available check and test performed before you commit to a purchase, and then
just hope like heck you get lucky.
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Mark,
Did I misread this quote from your vis check summary? Quote:"My
truck can not leave the facility until it is repaired."
Was this your choice to just get the repairs taken care of
for safety sake or did the shop actually refuse to release your rig? I'm not trying to criticize either answer, I would not
drive the truck either with that report in hand. For those who may be in a place they don't know and decided to have VIS check
done right after purchasing, this may be a very bad situation. If the shop refused to release the truck for liability, could
you have have had it towed to another place? I would want to still have the option to have estimates done first, especially
if a VIS check center is at dealer with several other shops nearby.
The main thing is, you found the problem without getting
hurt or hurting someone else. That alone is worth any repair bill I could get hit with. Brakes and Steering
are 2 things I am afraid to take chances with at all.
--------------
I responded:
Yes that is correct, they would not release my truck in that state. If
I had insisted on taking it, they would have called DOT to have the truck impounded. It was that bad.
On October 6, the thread continued:
Actually, Mark, they would have allowed the truck to be TOWED to another
facility....But in this case I'm not sure why one would. The treatment at the rally is first class.
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Mark,
I had a VIS-check on our 99 770 done at the FL dealer in
Portland, OR and it would have cost me a $100.00 but in the end it did not cost me anythng because they screwed up the schedule
and I had to bring it back a week later so they comped the whole thing. Brutus passed, the only issues were the dash light
behind the heater selection controls was out and I had a slight leak on the rear seal of the transmission.
I agree
the VIS check is well worth the money and would recommend it for anyone who is either considering purching a HDT or who already
has one.
Sorry that you are having so many problems with your rig.
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When Bonnie & I purchased our 2001 Volvo 610 I looked it over to the
best of my ability; I had been told what to look for from a couple of driver friends and a friend who is a service manager
at a major dealership. I felt we had found a good truck, but while Ripon Truck & Equipment was helping me with my bed
I asked them to look the truck over for problems. They adjusted the brakes, we also replaced the rear shocks and the height
adjust valve. Everything else they said looked to be in good to excellance condition. When we got to the HDT Rally (only third
time we had pulled with truck) and found I could get a VIS check for $100 I knew it would be very reasuring to Bonnie to see
a safety report printed out. As I hoped; and had been told by Ripon Truck the truck was indeed it good shape and passed all
the tests with flying colors. But it was money well spend to have a second opinion that let me know the truck I'm pulling
our fifth wheel down the highway with is a safe and very road worthy truck. If I was to start over, I would have a VIS check
before I purchased a truck. It is also in my opinion a good inspection to have done before you purchase.
----------
Larry responded to the forum in the thread on October 9th:
|
Mark,
Did they push the red button in before the test?
onezman |
|
|
I posted the next response at about the same time Larry posted his. His response, based on the pictures I sent him on the
5th was nonsense, so I didn't respond to that one.
The pass that you see is the balance parameter. (They are equally bad). The fail that you see is
that there isn't any brake force beyond rolling resistance. Yes it was very bad. More to come.
A little bit on the
machine, there are a set of pnuematic rollers, one for each wheel, that you try to stop with the brake pedal. It graphs the
application of the pedal, the forces on the wheel, and the return to normal rolling resistance.
The graph for the front
shows a classic brake application. If there were a real slow tail off after the pedal is released, then that would indicate
that the shoes didn't retract fast enough. If the ramp up is slow, then shoes are slow to respond to pedal forces. A flat
line is just plain inoperative.
As for my trailer brake operation, I can't comment there as I haven't connected a trailer
to my truck yet, I'm still working on the truck and getting knowledge. Thank God. A trailer connected to this would have been
an accident at the first downhill application of brakes.
Most tractors are ordered from the factory with ABS on only two of the
three axles. When all three axles have ABS, and one axle is removed, the ABS system "misses" that axle. The missing axle casues
the ABS system to throw a code all the time.
Most of the 770s I had converted including the one I am driving now,
had 3 axle ABS. All of them throw a code, but nothing is wrong with the brakes except the ABS cannot read the missing axle.
Pushing
the red button in at the same time the yellow button is released provides proportional braking to the rear axle 80% of the
time. I don't know exactly why there are variations.
The dealer in Kansas has not done any axle conversions that I
know of. His quoted price to me for axle conversions was three times higher than I ever paid anyone else, and I have had 60
conversions done.
I had all my conversions independently inspected for DOT certification. That means the brakes were
in safe operating condition at the time of inspection.
My apologies, I know you have had way more than your share
of problems with that truck. It sounds like for some reason either no air is being supplied to the rear brakes or the slack
adjusters are not working at all. I converted two 770s with ISX's and both of them have had problems.
Larry, not trying to rattle your cage with this, just pointing out the reality of most DOT certs
I've seen performed.
I am doubtful that a DOT check or inspection would have found this, without a VIS check or similar
test that actuall measures the rear brakes, I can't see how this would be caught. Most DOT inspections are just a visual check
of the brake linings, engagement of the park brake to see if it will hold the truck at any grade in a PARKED position. If
the service side of the system is not working right, how would this be picked up in most stationary tests? Even a DOT road
test by a mechanic would likely miss this since there is no trailer to hook it up to and the truck has no weight on it to
speak of.
If there's something I am missing or mistaken with this thought, please correct me.
----------
I'm sure Mark will provide further details of his brake problems.
But
from my observation, a DOT inspection would not have caught the problem; it would take two people doing the test to catch
it. One under the truck watching for operation of the slack adjusters while the other was actually in the cab operating the
brakes (truck stopped with parking brakes off, wheels chocked)
My final entry on the thread on October 10.
So the actual problem
as some of you have surmised is that the rear brakes on my truck were not moving the drum pads into contct with the drum.
There was no rear service brake air line going to the proportioning valve and the rear brake service port on the treadle vale
had a brass plug in it.
The line was cut and tucked in under the hood and at the back at the proportioning valve. This
was deliberate.
During a DOT inspection, the acuation of the rear service brakes are not really checked. They usually
check parking brake, front brake and for air leaks. Making suree there is actually a connected rear air line is not something
they explicitly look for.
New Air Line, removed proportioning valve, all fixed.
This has nothing to do with
it being a 770, Cummins ISX, or Autoshift. This was just bad singling.
On October 10, Larry responded:
Last winter I had several conversions done by 1ST Time Truck Repair in
Everman Texas. The mechanic who did them was named Nick. Due to to other problems that were discovered, Nick no longer works
there.
At that time I was going though a divorce and not on top of things. As a result, 2 of my customers were very
unhappy including Mark. Then this problem which I knew nothing about.
Prior to these two conversions I had a pretty
good reputation. It just goes to show that one hired guy can put a real hurt on a good reputation overnight.
My apologies
to Mark. Needless to say I am glad the VIS test found the problem and that it is fixed.
Later on that
same day Larry added:
1St Time Truck Repair: 817-551-5354 did 5 conversion for me last winter.
Mark's was one. The owners are Daniel and Curtis. I belive them to both be honorable men.
I havent done any conversions
since Mark started having his problems around 3 months ago. Anyone who bought a conversion from me last winter should immediately
have their brake system checked. E-mail me. I'll pay the bill if there is a problem.
Final Conversation With Larry
After I got done with the brakes and the drive line, I sent Larry the following email on October 22, 2006:
Hi Larry,
I’m finally back home. I have had several days to think on everything that has transpired
over the past month. I have gone over all of our previous emails, and the file folder that I have on the truck where I printed
off of the pages of your web site that were up when we made the deal to buy the truck.
There were two things you told me when I picked up the truck that have turned out to be just
plain wrong.
One is that the ABS light is only an annoyance that just has to be clicked off. This isn’t
completely true. Yes, you can turn the light off, but it also disables the ABS when it takes the fault. So, even though I
have fully rebuilt the rear brakes, I do not yet have functional ABS.
Two, that the mid axle is just as good as the rear axle.
False. I have yet to find a single professional truck mechanic who agrees with that. Each and
every one has told me that leaving the power diverter axle is just plain wrong for any number of reasons.
The power diverter axle was leaking from all three seals, and given that it is not the proper
axle to leave behind, I have fixed it myself. I don’t care how many you have done this way without problems. You told
me that you move the rear axle forward, and that’s not what you delivered.
The emergency repair at Doonan’s got the brakes serviceable enough to get me to where I
could look at the rear brakes up close. The drums were in very bad shape from being unused for 8000 miles and the shoes were
almost down to studs.
The rear axle correction was extremely difficult to do, but I did it as I didn’t have the
$9600 that the dealer wanted. I have left off and of the costs incurred for tools that I didn’t have, for labor for
the hired mechanic that I had help me, or for out of pocket expenses caused by being away from home for a month.
Emergency Service at Doonan's: $537
Brake Drums: $167.98
Brake Shoes: $85.20
Spring Kits: $16.98
S-Cams: $88.97
30/30 Brake Chambers: $87.98
ABS Sensors: $80.42
Rental Mechanic: $150
Total for Repair: $1214.53
Still Remaining: New ABS Module, Installed ~$1075 (Module is about $650)
Out of this bill, I think you owe me for the emergency repair, and half the cost of parts to
restore the back brakes. ($537 + $588.76)
Total: $1025.76
On the rear end:
Rear Diff, Housing, Axles: $1470
Credit Power Diverter: -$420
Driveshaft with U-Joints: $459
U-Bolts: $37.48
U-Bolt Nuts: $23.20
Shocks: $123.82
Grade 8 HW: $115
Five Gallons Gear Oil: $64.95
Inner Wheel Hub Bearings: $46
Inner Wheel Hub Races: $29.98
Outer Wheel Hub Bearings: $53.98
Outer Wheel Hub Races: $35.98
Hub Seals: $51.96
Differential Breather Valve: $7.99
Right Stuff Gasket Maker: $23.99
Machine Shop Pressing in races: $60
Mechanic providing final torque on U-Bolts, Wheels: $60
Lodging: $68 (Propane)
Total For Repair: $2626.33
Out of this bill, the only thing that I think you owe is the drive shaft, U-Bolts, and U-Bolt
Nuts. These are costs you would have incurred if the truck was singled in the manner that we agreed to and discussed.
If had known more about the power diverter axle at the time of purchase, I never would have taken
the truck. The rest: You would have had the parts there, and I have a rear end that will never need service during the
life of the truck.
Total $519.68.
Bottom Line: $1545.76 and this whole mess is sealed and behind us.
Once payment has cleared, I will update my web site to eliminate any reference, direct or indirect,
to you. I will release you from any other claims resulting from my ownership of this vehicle. I will also not pursue any other
options that I have at my disposal.
I thought that this was a more than fair deal. I hadn't dragged his name through the mud. I had given him every opportunity
to take responsibility for his sale of an unsafe vehicle and I wasn't looking for any punative damages.
I was looking to close out one very ugly chapter in the transition to the full time RV lifestyle.
His responses were interspersed in the email when he responded on October 23. I've extracted them here:
On the ABS:
I didnt know that. i do know its easy to lock up the wheels when you have abs and
no load on the truck.
On the Rear Diff:
All mechanics toldl me the same thing. I talked to three different Eaton technicians before I
did any that way. All three Eaton guys told me it wouldnt make any difference. Regardless of what anyone might say, It
hasnt made a difference either.
On Bad Brakes:
I honestly didnt notice the brakes being bad. i know now there were no rear brakes. Thats never
happened before. One bad mechanic can mess things up. The truck passed a DOT inspection that means the shoes were good at
that time.Unused drums can only rust a bit. Rust wears right off. You just wanted new shoes and drums etc.
On the request for Brake Payment:
You drove the truck for what, 7 months? i know now the rear brakes weren't working,
but still . Do they charge more for "emergency" repairs than regular repairs? How can it be an emergency when the truck is
in their shop?
On the request for Rear Diff Payment:
I have done about 1/2 my conversions the way yours is done. None have failed. None have leaked.Yours
didnt leak when you picked it up. i showed you then how I did that conversion. and you didnt compalin.
Larry's Final Comments:
I gave you $500 in cash back when you bought it, and later gave you another $500.
Then you delight in badmouthing me on the forum rather than writing me.
I don't owe you anything for the rear end. If you choose to have the engine and transmission
rebuilt, I won't pay for any of that either.
Due to the mechanics error, I owe you for the part of the VIS that checked the rear brakes, the
airline the plugs used and the labor for that.The rest ot the stuff you did was becasue you wanted to.
My final response to Larry was on October 23, 2006 when I wrote:
You won't hear from me again. At this time I will exercise other options at my disposal and at
their request can no longer have direct contact with you.
Good day Sir
At the end of my interactions with Larry, there were two things that really, really set me off. I absolutely went
out of my way not to bash him. I bit my tongue on more occasions that I care to think about, and gave him the benefit of the
doubt in every interaction. Then he accuses me of badmouthing him. I dare anybody to find a single bad word written or said
by me about him before October 23rd. Secondly, he has yet to take any responsibility for his actions. He sold a death trap
of a truck and got away with it for nothing more than a request for a few bucks.
Larry at one time may have done a good job coverting trucks. It's debatable if he was the pioneer in making HDT's
the safe RV tow vehicles of choice. What is clear now is that the truck he delivers now is nowhere near the quality of
what he used to deliver. His ability to deliver a safe, clean, mechanically sound truck is mearly a footnote in RV history.
Epilog
Larry never did pay me for the brakes. Never did pay me for the fixing the defective drive shaft, and the two things
he did pay for, he didn't cover me for 50 cents on the dollar. So, If after all of this you still want to do business with
Larry, you're on your own.
My truck is now safe and operational. Total expense, $85,000. Don't get hoodwinked like I did. Buy your own truck,
contract out the work yourself.
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