Joan's Sourdough Page

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Joan's Sourdough Bread Primer

For those who remember: my award winning Culinary Web Pages- Culinary Lessons From Joan, graced the Net from 1995 to 2003; I had over 30 primers on various baking, cooking and culinary topics.

Unfortunately for a variety of reasons I decided to take my site offline -all except for this sourdough primer. It's still here for your enjoyment and baking pleasure!

BE SURE TO SCROLL THE ENTIRE PAGE FOR SOURDOUGH RELATED TOPICS - Recipes across the page and Tips for bread photography at the bottom of this page

This primer contains a Lot Of General Information To Get You Started.

My information is presented to you from the best of my knowledge and experience.

I have been baking bread for more than 30 years but only sourdough for the past 15 years. My friends and family agree I make excellent sourdough breads. Although I do not profess to be an expert in the field of sourdough ; I would like to share with you the things I have learned. So use this primer as a good starting point and do as I, gather as much information about the topic as you can.

Experiment, bake and enjoy as you learn. I have achieved my goal if I have given you a basic idea of what is involved in sourdough baking. Sourdough baking is not as difficult as it seems.

Also note that I use the words: culture and starter and batter and sponge to mean approximately the same thing.

Although I have made bread and baked goods for so many years I also enjoy making sourdough bread. It's a rewarding bread making experience that requires patience and practice .

First of all sourdough yeast is not the same as the conventional baker's yeast. Some people feel if baker's yeast is added in the recipe or starter, the sourdough is not a true sourdough. Other people advocate the use of baker's yeast in the sourdough.

From what I read , baker's yeast is probably added in small amounts to "assure" a good rise in the bread without losing any distinctiveness of the sourdough bread. This issue seems quite debatable. All I can comment is make your bread the way you want it and enjoy it! If you have the opportunity , I do suggest you try sourdough baking without baker's yeast and you will be pleasantly surprised and rewarded with a bread that rises well, with a good texture , distinctive flavor, and chewy crust.

Sourdough yeasts thrive in an acidic environment. Lactic acid and acetic acid , produced by bacteria , account for the special sour taste in sourdough. Of course other factors such as , temperature, fermentation ( generally the time period of incubation of the sponge right up to the baking process - when yeasts become activated and sugars and starches are broken down with dough becoming more acidic ) plus the kinds of ingredients used etc. also account for the quality of sourness in the dough.

The characteristics of the particular starter you use also determines the quality of your sourdough bread. Sourdough yeasts also help the bread rise and , as in any other yeast bread recipe, carbon dioxide ( as well as a small amount of alcohol ) is produced , pushing on the air pockets between the cell walls and thus causing expansion of the dough. The bread stretches and rises also because of the gluten content present in the flour. Sourdough is so variable and I think it is this quality that makes sourdough baking so enjoyable and often times a challenge.

Reliable starters have survived for decades and seem resistant to contamination.

Therefore the very first thing you need for your sourdough baking is obtain a reliable starter. Some people have had success making their own starters basically from flour and liquid ( such as water or milk etc. ) and exposing it to the wild yeasts present in the environment. I personally haven't had such luck and prefer to obtain a reliable starter.

However I do not discourage anyone from making their own sourdough starter. When you make your own starter from scratch you will have to determine whether you are satisfied with the leavening power, degree of sourness, taste and texture and the overall reliability and consistency in the long run.

There are numerous recipes for starters on the Net , bread cook books and from Darrell Greenwood's Sourdough FAQ found at his website. The Sourdough FAQ's are also frequently posted to the rec.food.sourdough group. For starter information, read on below.. If you have a favorite sourdough starter recipe and wish to post it here, please do share with us!

If you can get a reliable sourdough starter from a friend or even at a bakery then you are fortunate.You can also purchase reliable starters from Sourdough International: P.O.Box 670, Cascade Idaho 83611 .I believe they have about 9 international varieties of starters and their own site on the Net.

One of my favorite starters was obtained free from a kind and generous gentleman, Carl Griffith of Sequim Washington who has passed away.

OBTAIN FREE SOURDOUGH CULTURE ( ALTHOUGH DONATIONS APPRECIATED ) :

Carl's starter is again available at: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends A volunteer group ( including me ) who wish to keep the Carl starter( Oregon Trail ) going on as long as possible. .Dick Adams has posted his basic pan bread sourdough recipe with photos. Other people have posted their recipes and photos as well.

The site contains info from Carl's original brochure ( instructions, recipes etc. ) , a history and photo of Carl , and E-mail adresses of the volunteer board members etc.

For obtaining other free starters people use the rec.food.sourdough Usenet group for posting to trade their own sourdough starters. For other varieties ( and there are so many ) you may wish to order from the International Sourdough group. I also know that gourmet stores sell other brands of dried cultures ( for example: Goldrush , San Francisco or Walnut Acres Organic Farms cultures) which I personally have had no experience with.

Many of my reader's have offered to share their personal starter recipes and techniques for this page.

I will gladly post any shared recipe/tips/starters that you may send me to include on this page.

Just E-mail me !

If your server obtains newsgroups then I highly recommend looking into the Usenet newsgroup, rec.food.sourdough There are some very experienced people well versed in sourdough baking who are willing to help you, answer questions and share information. You can trade starters with others, share recipes and ideas.

All questions welcome, no matter how simple or how complex! Posted routinely at this group by Darrell Greenwood are the rec food sourdough

FAQ ( frequently asked questions and answers ). If you can't access the sourdough Usenet newsgroup try the following for an abundance of information as well as a large variety of sourdough recipes.

SOME Excellent SOURDOUGH LINKS:

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html Lots of excellent sourdough info/ a hugh variety of recipes at Darrell's site

This information is also posted on a regular basis at the rec.food.sourdough Usenet group

You may want to see these :

Mike's Sourdough Home ( sourdough hydration spread sheets ) http://www.sourdoughhome.com/

or Samartha's Page at http://samartha.net/SD/

or Dick Page:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/dicka

Remember one link leads you to so many others! There are so many other wonderful links retrieved from these pages.

I will glady add more sourdough links to my Links page, so Email me if you have your own special page about sourdough!

There are also many books on the subject as well as more information on the Internet and so it is up to you to read and search and seek for more specific information and recipes. At the end of this primer I have listed some of my favorites. Some are out of print but I list them anyway since I enjoy collecting old cookbooks as do many of you!

You may receive your culture in various states, usually as a dried form, moist dough ball or as an already existing batter. ( A common misconception is that sourdough culture must always be kept warm. Interesting to note is that chilling ( refrigeration ) does not kill the sourdough yeast but very high temperatures will indeed damage or kill the sourdough yeast.) . See my notes re drying and freezing culture further on below.

The dry culture as well as the dough ball must be reconstituted according to directions sent with the culture. Generally quantities of equal amounts of flour and water are added, but be sure to follow specific directions . If you receive the batter, you are then set to progress for recipes and feedings etc. New cultures need to feel at home with your environment so to speak and you may want to feed and care for them for a while (a few weeks ) before making bread. Of course you may use the new culture sooner for such things as pancakes etc.

I keep my starters in non metallic containers such as glass or heavy duty plastic. You can invest in a ceramic sourdough crock, but you really don't need it. Whatever you use, make sure there is enough room for expansion . I usually keep my containers about 1/2 full and place them on the lowest refrigerator shelf. Most starters will keep indefinitely in the refrigerator and require feedings about every two weeks if not used.

Refrigeration slows down the activity of the yeasts. Some people keep their starters at room temperature providing the sourdough yeasts a small feed daily of flour and liquid and then refrigerating once they have achieved the degree of sourness they want.

Truthfully, I only feed my well established refrigerated starters once a month unless I use them more often. You will notice that a liquid will rise to the top ( not necessarily clear and often in variable yellow or even dark shades ) which is an alcohol affectionately called "hootch" .Stir this well into the starter again before using. Your starter should have a fresh sour, tangy smell and taste.

As a rule, I remove all my starters about once a month from their containers and wash containers and covers well and return the starters again to the containers.

I have frozen starters ( both in batter form and dried form ) and from my experience found the thawed starters may be unreliable. I have also dried ( stored in a glass jar, tightly sealed and wrapped in foil and kept in a cool dark place ) some starters and sometimes they too may be unreliable when reconstitued. So if you choose to dry or freeze cultures do several portions at a time just in case one portion doesn't reconstitute as you would expect. This is my experience and others may have a different story because different cultures and environments vary etc.

Note: For short term keeping in the refrigerator with the goal to send or mail to others , one may add enough flour to a few tablespoons of the starter to form a noodle dough consistency to form into a dough ball. Then this can be flattened as pasta dough and sealed in plastic and refrigerated for short term such as a week or so ( and possibly longer ) . When the recipients receive this dough they then can reconstitute it with flour and warm water in equal small amounts, building up the starter gradually.

How you feed and care for you starter is up to you. The consistency of the starter should be as the consistency of pancake batter, not thin or runny. I never let my cultures get to thin or soupy and sometimes I do let them get a bit thicker than pancake batter. You can keep building and feeding your starter by adding equal amounts of warm water and flour to the starter ( but please note the ratio of flour and liquid amounts may not always be equal to each other.

Experienced sourdough bakers who know their cultures quite well don't always use the "equal rule " or you may wish to remove and pour out the same amount or half the amount of the total added . The excess batter may be used in a recipe such as pancakes or you may just throw it away.

This adding to and deleting of the culture is sometimes called " freshening" or " sweetening " of the starter if cultures get to sour. Sometimes, but not always, most all starter is poured out of the container except perhaps for one cup. Some people remove some of the hootch ( alcohol ) that rises to the top of the starter. I prefer sour cultures and I don't remove hootch. Some people tell you to add a teaspoon of baking soda ( an alkaline agent which neutralizes acids ) to the starter to sweeten it if the starter is much to sour for you. It may be worth a try.

Baking soda also has a dual action and is used in some recipes for its rising effects and not to reduce sour flavor. It is activated by the presence of acids and carbon dioxide is released which helps dough things rise.

However, baking soda may turn some batters yellow. You may see baking soda added ( for rising effects not to reduce sour ) in such sourdough recipes such as pancakes, waffles, cakes or sourdough type of " quick breads". The sourdough cake and cornbread recipe below is an example of baking soda added for its rising effects only.

I prefer to let my staters get quite sour. The more you feed and use your starters the better they will get in the long run. If your starter is sluggish and as Carl Griffith suggested, try the addition of a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar to the starter which will give a boost to the the ailing starter .

Sometimes people add a teaspoon of sugar to the starter to help feed it ( not for sweetness ) but I don't add sugar to any of my starters. Carl also recommended to occasionally feed the starter with a tablespoon of instant potato flakes. In any event if your new starter has a few scattered tiny bubbles present or formed a little bit of early "hootch" , all is not lost and you may be able to successfully revive an ailing starter.

Temperature factors are important. I usually stick with 85 to 90 F degrees when I prepare a sponge." Sponge" is just the name when you use a portion of your starter and add fresh flour and water and let it sit and ferment. Actually the temperature and time period will determine the degree of fermentation, the sourness and rising abilities of the dough. When your sponge is ready the way you like, then you can add the remainder of the ingredients and prepare your recipe. Experience and preference will dictate how long you wish to incubate your sponge once you understand the characteristics and stages of your sponge.

When you make your sponge batter from the starter usually equal amounts of flour and water are added to the starter, although some people may not necessarily use this ratio all of the time. . Then let the mixture sit in a warm place, to get bubbly and more sour ( may be up to 48 hours ) and then return 1 cup of it to the sourdough container. The remainder of the bubbly sponge is used in the bread recipe.

What I do is remove my entire container of starter from the refrigerator and stir it well and let it sit until warm and active (bubbly) at room emperature.

This may take several hours or so. Then I usually remove a cup of it ( depends on the recipe ) and return the starter container to the refrigerator again. I add water and flour ( I add the flour first and then water over the flour ) stirring very vigorously and let the mixture sit about 12 hours or until very foamy and bubbly. I then return some of this sponge ( not necessarily a cup - but enough to feed the yeasts ) to the starter container stirring well . The remainder of the sponge is made into bread by adding the remaining ingredients and letting the dough rise for about a minimum of 8 to 12 hours.

There is always the issue of the degree of sourness and rising ability related to the length of rise. The longer the fermentation, the more sour the bread and some loss of rising capabilities resulting in perhaps not so tall a loaf. You have to experiment with your doughs and understand how they react. Sometimes I have my dough rise 2 or 3 times prior to baking and sometimes just one very long rise before the bread goes into the oven This is what I do and other bakers do it quite differently !

I always use bottled water , never tap water. Tap water may be full of chlorine, salt or impurities which may affect the quality of the bread. I also use bread flour or high gluten flour for my sourdough bread recipes. The high gluten is needed for the stretching of the gluten and long rises required in sourdough baking. As I mentioned, I use no baker's yeast in my sourdough bread recipes. My rolls and muffins come out tender with bread flour but you may want to experiment by using a lower gluten flour for part of the flour in your more tender recipes.

I prepare my sourdough bread recipes with the same techniques required of any other yeast bread recipes. I knead the dough well by hand, getting a smooth, pliable texture. It certainly can be done with a machine but I enjoy hand preparation. I don't find the dough quite as elastic as I do with a baker's yeast bread dough probably because the sourness of the dough makes it less elastic. I only add enough additional flour to the dough to prevent it from being very sticky. I aim for a moist pliable soft to medium dough- never stiff.

The dough is then put in a slightly oiled bowl, covered , to rise until puffy and double or triple in a warm place ( 85 to 90 F degrees ) which takes many hours. I then punch down the dough, reshape it and let it rise again in an oiled bread pan.

All these rising times are quite lengthy ( 6 to 12 hours ) and you must be patient while the dough rises. Sometimes I just shape my dough after the kneading process and let it rise puffy and swollen ( for boules ) and bake the bread without any further risings. You will have to experiment to see what you like best.

You may choose to deeply slash ( score, cut ) the dough with the tip of a sharp knife or razor blade in a decorative fashion after shaping the loaf and prior to rising . Some people say slashing the dough helps it give a better rise and bake. Score marks are more prominent in firmer doughs than softer doughs. My breads rise well despite the slash or not.

After the final rise you can gently brush the loaf with a glaze ( brush with milk, or melted butter, egg yolk or white mixed with a bit of water ) and sprinkle on some seeds ( seseme, poppy, caraway, anise etc.) and bake as instructed. If you don't glaze you may choose to spray or brush the dough with water.

I like to use a spray bottle of water and periodically spray the insides of the oven and bread after the first 10 minutes of baking, spraying every 5 minutes thereafter for at least 15 minutes while the bread is baking. Water spray produces a crisp crust. For a bakery look, I often sprinkle flour over the top of the unbaked loaf.

If I don't bake in a loaf form I shape the dough into a round "boule " or bowl shaped form. I put the dough in a cloth ( linen ) napkin lined basket ( sprinkle the cloth with flour or even spray it with bakers spray ) , spray the top of the dough with either water or oil and cover with some plastic wrap and let it rise in a warm place until swollen and puffy. Make sure the plastic wrap doesn't touch the dough or it may stick and be hard to remove. I use long toothpicks pushed into the edges of the basket to support the cover of the plastic.

At other times, I put the dough filled basket ( or even the dough filled loaf pan ) into my plastic cake container and cover it with the plastic dome and not the plastic wrap. I also put a small glass of warm water in the cake container to keep moisture in and prevent the dough from drying out.

Sometimes I place my dough filled basket on top of the radiator cover in my home during the winter or even place the basket on a warming tray on low heat setting to maintain the warmth.

Then the trick is to carefully remove the inflated dough from its basket container to a baking stone or sheet without deflating it ! No matter how careful you do it, I find there is some minor deflation of the dough. You can use heavy duty foil to line the basket and remove the foil containing the inflated dough and bake the dough right in the foil! Thank you Dick Adams for this trick.

Actually his advice includes much more detail , such as making handles from the foil for easier lifting and transfer etc.( He has other good sourdough advice and info found at: Dick's Page : http://www.angelfire.com/ma/dicka

I have taken his idea one step further and have bought a metal mesh bowl and lined it with foil and then baked the bread in the bowl with the foil. The loaf keeps its wonderful puffy shape! See a picture of my boule below. If you can't find a metal mesh bowl then try to find a small round metal mesh colander which suffices very well. The small deep aluminum or stainless steel colanders with handles and feet are wonderful for oven baking. Be careful with other metals which may be treated, and are not suitable for oven baking because they may melt or give off fumes .

I also bake my sourdough in free form round loaves. The bread may sag a bit but I still get wonderful puffy loaves. I do have a " cloche ", a dome covered ceramic container especially for baking breads but I don't use it often. You don't really need it but the cloche does produce nice crispy crusts!

Across, are a few basic recipes. As I have mentioned earlier in my primers, I don't mean to fill my web page with volumes of recipes. You can get many wonderful sourdough recipes from the internet , links, and newsgroups.

Mine are only a start. My breads taste mild to medium sour only because my family prefers them that way. Very often I also make plain ( or what some people refer to as "true" ) sourdough bread consisting of nothing more than the culture, flour, water and a dash of salt as in my free form loaf pictured at the top of this primer..The texture is light; the bread full of lacy holes. Other times, I bake an assortment of sourdough recipes incorporating a variety of ingredients.

Sourdough bread baking is a wonderful experience. You must try it!

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A TECHNIQUE TO CONVERT YOUR OWN BREAD RECIPE INTO SOURDOUGH BREAD :

This basic method ( with some of my changes ) comes from Sourdough Jack's Cookery ( 1959 ) and is a reliable technique that will turn your favorite bread recipe ( buns, breads etc. ) into a very good sourdough one. You must have a

good reliable starter. Try you favorite one loaf recipe such as white , anadama , oatmeal or any yeast white flour bread recipe (or buns and rolls ). All come out very well.

1. Place one cup of your favorite active sourdough starter in a large bowl with about 2/3 of the total flour called for in your recipe. Add all the milk or water to make a stirable thick batter.You don't want a dough but a batter.

2. Cover the bowl and set aside the mixture in a warm place for 14 to 16 hours.

The longer it stands, the more sour it gets. This sponge mixture will get bubbly and light.

3. Now add all the additional ingredients ( such as salt, sugar, oil, eggs etc.) called for in your recipe except the remaining flour. Do not include any yeast or baking soda- omit them! Please trust your starter. If the starter is bubbly and active, the recipe will turn out okay.

4.Add the remaining flour, mix and knead well by hand, adding additional flour only if needed to make a soft pliable nonsticky dough. Dough will smooth and elastic but just a bit softer than your typical yeast dough recipes.

5. Let the dough rest 10 minutes, covered.

6. Form your dough into a loaf ( or loaves ) and place dough in the pan (s) or how your recipe instructs.

7. Let the dough rise, to the tops of the pan (s ) or until light and puffy in a warm place. Patience- this takes much longer than standard yeast dough recipes- often many hours !.!

8. Bake and cool as your recipe instructs. Your bread should have a nice soft interior, a good chewy crust and that special sourdough tang .

A Last Thought On Fermented Batters and Breads

Many people enjoy making unique sour or fermented breads/baked goods from starters which in my humble opinion I don't consider 100% true sourdough. Such a recipe is the "sweet" sour dough starter and bread recipe which many people enjoy making. Many popular versions use the potato flake starter and bread recipe which can be found on the Internet. "Herman" and Amish bread starter recipes are easily found on the internet!

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ASSORTED READING MATERIAL:

Some of the following books/booklets are out of print but I have picked them up

at yard sales or book sellers.Not all are strictly sourdough but all are good basic books.

Today , there are numerous books available on bread and sourdough baking available at the major book stores

However, the ones below are what I like to collect! I have often found that some of the following books may have been reprinted again so check with your library or bookstore.

The more you read, the more you learn!

ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA-THE BREADS, THE BAKERS, THE BEST RECIPES-

MAGGIE GLEZER Copyright 2001- Beautiful recipes and their color photos. Chapters on Sourdough and pre- fermented doughs ( poolish, biga, old dough scraps, sponge/levain, mixed starters/chef )

THE BEST BREAD EVER- CHARLES van OVER Copyright 1997

Making bread dough using your food processor - includes a chapter on sourdough recipes for starter and breads

ADVENTURES IN SAN FRANCISCO SOURDOUGH COOKING AND BAKING -CHARLES D. WILFORD

Copyright 1971- basic recipe for starters and many assorted sourdough baking recipes

SOURDOUGH BREADS AND COFFEE CAKES- ADA LOU ROBERTS - Copyright 1967

104 baking recipes using homemade starters ( inc. recipes using raw & cooked potato starters )

SOURDOUGH JACK'S COOKERY - JACK MABEE- Copyright 1959 featuring Alaskan sourdough recipes- One of my favorite books!

ALASKA SOURDOUGH - RUTH ALLMAN- Copyright 1976 assorted starter and baking recipes

THE BEST OF THE HERMAN SOURDOUGH HERALD- DAWN JOHANSON AND HARLENE WATLAND

COPYRIGHT 1980's

Assorted recipes for starters and baked goods using the Herman Starter so popular in the 1980's

This book may be ordered at Barnes and Noble book store. I know as I have seen it on the shelves!

RECIPES FROM THE OLD MILL- BAKING WITH WHOLE GRAINS- SARAH MYERS & MARY BETH LIND

Copyright 1995, not strictly sourdough but offers several wholegrain sourdough recipes amongst an assortment of wholegrain baking recipes

BAKING WITH SOURDOUGH - SARA PITZER - Copyright 1980

A booklet from Storey Bulletins, featuring assorted recipes for starters and baked goods

SECRETS OF A JEWISH BAKER - GEORGE GREENSTEIN Copyright 1993

A nice chapter on sour style and sourdough breads amongst other bread and baking recipes

CREATIVE SOURDOUGH COOKING- ROSE CANTRELL- Copyright 1977

A large selection of sourdough recipes featuring many innovative baked goods. A book I recently acquired from a bargain book store.

THE VERY LAST WORD :

Remember to use a reliable active sourdough starter as the bread is only as good

as the starter you use. HAVE PATIENCE.

Flour Power to You !

BE SURE TO SCROLL THE ENTIRE PAGE FOR MORE TOPICS:

RECIPES- across

PHOTOGRAPHY TIPS DIRECTLY BELOW

READER'S SOURDOUGH RECIPES/COMMENTS SECTION

Share your recipes/info/comments and/or trade your cultures here .

Below , are an amazing assortment of sourdough recipes including bread machine recipes, cakes, buns, waffles, pancake, biscuits and designer sourdough recipes. I do hope you enjoy them !

Editor's Note: please note, I make no claims about the following recipes/information since I have not tested any. They are simply shared here by my reader's for your reading and I hope your baking pleasure !

Reader's Comments:

Patti
Santa Fe, Texas

2008

Thank you for your sourdough website. I am new to baking with sourdough but am getting addicted very quickly. Today I made the chocolate cake from your website. I make loaves every few days. ......

Thanks,

From: Bo Ure

Sept. 2004

Joan, hello.........

I'd like to add, since I may not get another chance, that your page has been most influential to me. It was one of the first pages I encountered when I became interested in baking sourdough last year, and it is the page that taught me the most -- yours and the FAQ page that the fellows put together. Your photographs were especially helpful, they showed me what to aim for. I kept thinking, "Gosh, if I could only produce one single loaf that looks fractionally good as Joan's then I'll be happy," so you set the goal and I held that image in mind as I proceeded to enact every single mistake known to baking through 3 consecutive 50 lb. sacks of flour. Since then, tons of new stuff has suddenly appeared all over the Internet but I will always think of you and your page with fondness for giving me the encouragement and information I needed to get started.

Bo Ure, Denver CO

From Joe Quinton

June 2004

Sourdough Advice

I don't use a sourdough bread recipe per se. The good nuns that gave us the starter still going strong after two years gave us several recipes but by now it just seems to go by experience. Oven time has been my most critical point. I wrote these lines to send to several friends to whom I give bread, googled up your site and decided to share. I think the most important thing I learned was to clean up immediately as I went along. Otherwise things don't get clean!

yours in dough

Joe Quinton

I'm continually amazed at the elegance of sourdough baking . . . Bread is simple and yet it's one of the most satisfying foods there is, and the most fundamental.

Since I have set the sourdough starter to rise I thought I would get some thoughts on sourdough baking as above Tomorrow morning I will turn the risen starter, called a sponge now, into a bread bowl about four feet across and add water, flour. and whatever additional goods strike my fancy. Currently these run to Grape Nuts and flax seed meal .

Then I will stir the sucker with a large wood paddle we have, about one hundred times is about right, then let it sit and rise for maybe an hour.

There really isn't a recipe either for amounts added or times though there are general guidelines and >does it look right?< Then I tilt the mass out of the bowl and roll it around into shape. The bread shapes I make depend on whim rather than science. Sometimes I make all regular bread pan loaves and other times free shapes large or small. We even have a muffin pan that makes 24 at a crack.

Let it bake, turn it out of the pans or off the sheet and let it cool on bakers racks. I make so much at a time that it is bagged and frozen after cooling.

From: bikenutz

Aug.2003

Subject: Thank You!

Joan,

I just came back from our first adventure in Alaska and our first experience with Sour Dough Cooking. We want to learn how to cook like this. After bringing home 300# of fresh seafood catch and cookbooks I began to explore how to make Sourdough. Your website has the best information and today I am sending for Carl's starter. I had so many questions about the recipes I brought home and your website has answered all of them. You are a true gem. I can tell you have already saved me from making some really huge mistakes. I look forward to learning from you. Thank you for generosity to share your knowledge with others.

You are a true blessing.

My total admiration and respect,

Nancy Stirek

Omaha, NE

From: Dalepaulg@aol.com

April 2003

Subject: Hello again after a long winter...

Hello again, Just wanted to tell you again how much I enjoy your culinary pages. I visited the sourdough primer again and was pleased to see that you have posted the recipe I sent to you. Thank you. There is no need to look any further on the web than your site. If it involves baking, you have covered it.

Thanks again...

Dale...

From: Alishaj529@cs.com

Nove 2002

Subject: What a great Place!

Hi Joan,

I happened on your sourdough site simply by typing sourdough into my key word box.

What a great place!..........

From: Bill Sering

Oct 2002

Subject: excellent site!

I was looking for some new sourdough recipes this morning and came across your site. It is amazing!

One of the joys in life is being around people who love what they do and it is obvious you love cooking!

My wife, Sheri, and I will be spending plenty of time unwrapping this amazing gift you've so graciously left for all!

Thank you very much!

Bill Sering

Darlington, Indiana

From Keith

March 2004

RECIPE:

Subject Sourdough Doughnuts

Joan, I got this recipe from an old cookbook and hope you enjoy as much as I do.Of course you can use your own sourdough starter if you wish.

Sourdough mixture:

2 cups flour

1 tsp sugar

1 tsp salt

1 1/2 cups warm water

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2 eggs

1 Tbs. oil

1 1/3 cups sugar

1 tsp each: cinnamon, nutmeg, salt

4 tsp baking powder

1/4 tsp baking soda

3 cups flour ( approx )

oil to fry

In a non metal bowl combine the first 4 ingredients and set out in a warm place covered until mixture starts to bubble abd sour - about 2 days or so. Transfer mixture to a larger bowl and stir in the eggs and oil. Combine the remaining dry ingredients ( except the flour ) and stir into the sourdough mixturre. Mix in enough flour gradually until the dough has a nice doughnut consistency for rolling and cutting. Cut and roll as you would with any doughnut recipe. Fry in hot oil ( 365F ) until golden. Drain on absorbant paper. Dust with powder sugar if desired. The texture of this doughnut should be a cross between a cake and raised doughnut. Makes several dozen

Editor's Note: see another sourdough doughnut recipe further on below

From Michele

Dec 2003

RECIPE:

Subject: Sourdough French Bread

Hi, I am including the whole recipe which uses yeast. I did not not use any bakers yeast but used Carl's starter and the bread came out great.

Here it is, a recipe I found in a woman's magazine

Sourdough French Bread

1 pkg yeast ( I did not use )

1 3/4 cup warm water ( I reduced the amt and increased the amt of starter )

4 1/2 cups all purpose flour ( I used bread flour)

1/4 cup sourdough starter ( I used 1 cup starter and reduced the amt of water above )

2 Tbs. oil

2 Tbs. sugar

2 tsp salt

Cornstarch glaze ( I think this can be optional )

1/2 cup water

1 1/2 tsp cornstarch

In mixing bowl, dissolve yeast in warm water. Stir in starter, oil, sugar and salt.Add flour and knead on a floured surface 20 to 30 times ( dough will be sticky ). Place in an oiled bowl, turn to coat , cover and let rise double about 1 1/2 hours. Puch down, divide in half. Roll each half into a 12 x 8 inch rectangle and roll up from long side, placing seam side down on baking sheet .Cover and let rise double about 1/2 hour.. Slash top in several places. Combine cornstarch and water and cook and stir over medium heat until thickened. Brush some mixture over loafs. Bake bread 400F for 15 minutes. Brush remaining glaze over bread and bake until done and golden about another 10 to 15 minutes. Remove to racks to cool. Yield 2 loaves

100 % Sourdough Version

Note: since I didn't use any yeast, my dough was much more sticky. I added enough flour to hand knead for a pliable dough. The dough took about 3 times longer to rise the first time as well as for the second rise. It was worth the wait ! Good Luck

JOAN, I am going to give this to you like you never made it before,

RECIPE

Anne Atkins SOUR DOUGH BREAD

1 and one fourth cups starter *( see starter preparation note below )

one half cup of sugar

one half cup of oil { I use olive oil }

1 Tablespoons of salt

1 cup of warm water

5 or 6 cups of bread flour

*Take starter out of refrigerator, and feed, with 1 cup of bread flour, three fourth cup of sugar, one fourth cup of potato flakes { or a small potato roasted} 1 cup of warm water, Stir with wooden spoons only and leave covered with dish towel until next day, Next remove 1 and one fourth cup and put into stone bowl or glass do not use plastic, Place 2 cups back into glass jar , Do not put air tight lid on it, If you have any left use or give away but only keep two cups in starter,

With remaining ingredients:

Mix with wooden spoons well, Turn out on floured surface and kneed well, Put oil into stone bowl and place dough in turning coating with oil, cover and let set until rising {next day} Punch down and kneed dividing into three loaves place into baking pans and let rise, Next day it should be risin very much bake in 350F oven

Enjoy, !

Richard & Cynthia Foote

March 2003

Subject: Assorted Sourdough Recipes

RECIPES:

Sourdough Chocolate Cake with Angel Mellow Frosting

1/2 cup starter

1 cup + 2 Tablespoons milk

1 1/2 cups flour

1 cup sugar

1/2 cup shortening

1/2 teaspoon salt

1 1/2 teaspoons baking soda

2 each eggs

3 foil wrapped squares of Hershey's semi sweet Baking Chocolate (melted)

1 teaspoon vanilla

1 teaspoon cinnamon

1 cup Walnuts (Chopped)

Mix starter, milk & flour. Let stand for 3 to 5 hours in a warm place until bubbly and there is a clean sour milk smell. (Note I like to cover the sourdough mixture with glad plastic wrap while it is sitting to keep it from drying out. "this makes the cake more moist". Cream shortening, sugar, flavorings, salt & baking soda. Add eggs one at a time, beating well after each addition. Combine the sourdough mixture with the creamed mixture and melted chocolate and stir in well. Next add the walnuts and stir 300 strokes or mix at low speed until well blended. Pour into greased and floured cake pan. Bake at 350 for 25 to 30 minutes ore until done. Cool and frost.

This recipe came published to a church cook book back in the 1960's

Angel Mellow Frosting

My Mothers recipe. We feel this frosting really goes well with this cake

1/2 cup sugar

2 egg whites

2 Tablespoons Water

2 Cups Marshmallow cream 7 oz. ( the small jar)

1/2 teaspoon vanilla

Combine sugar, egg whites and water in a double boiler. Beat with and electric or rotary beater over boiling water until soft peaks form. Add marshmallow cream, beat to stiff peaks. Remove from heat, beat in vanilla.

*Note if you don't have a double boiler you can use to pans one large pan and one a little smaller being careful not to let your frosting go swimming into the boiling water. I make this frosting this way for awhile I used a clamp too hold the handles together.

Sourdough Applesauce Cake

1 cup sourdough starter

1/4 cup dry skim milk

1 cup applesauce

1/2 cup granulated sugar

1/2 cup brown sugar

1/2 cup butter or margarine softened

1 well beaten egg

1 cup flour

1/2 teaspoon salt

1/2 teaspoon nutmeg

1/2 teaspoon allspice

1 teaspoon cinnamon

1/2 teaspoon ground cloves

2 teaspoons baking soda

Mix the start, powdered milk and 1 cup of applesauce in a bowl, cover and let rise double in bulk, about 2 hours. Cream together the 2 sugars and butter then stir remaining ingredients together. Add the sourdough mixture and beat only enough to blend in. Pour into a well greased 9X9 dripper pan at 350 for 45 minutes. Let cool and top with a standard white frosting!

This recipe is out of a sourdough book I got many years back!

SOURDOUGH COOKIN by Dean Tucker, the copyright 1976

Sourdough Waffles

2 cups all-purpose flour

2 Tablespoons sugar

1/2 cup sourdough starter

2 Tablespoons Cornmeal

1/2 cup vegetable oil

3 large eggs (separated)

1 teaspoon baking soda

1 teaspoon salt

vegetable cooking spray

Toppings:

Optional whipped cream for serving

" fruit preserve for serving

" maple syrup for serving

" butter for serving

1. In a medium bowl, combine flour, sugar, and 1 1/2 cups warm water. Wisk until well combined and no lumps remain. Add more water if necessary to achieve the proper consistency. Add sourdough starter, and wisk to combine cover with plastic wrap, and let it set at room temperature (place it in the sink if the batter bubbles over), for at least 12 hours.

2. Heat a nonstick waffle iron. Remove 1/2 cup batter, and add to remaining sour dough to keep the starter alive.

3. Add cornmeal and salt to batter, and whisk in oil and eggs yolks. Combine baking soda with 1 Tbs.. water, and stir into batter. In a separate bowl, whisk egg whites to stiff glossy peaks, then fold into batter.

4. Spray the waffle iron with cooking spray. Spoon in batter to fill but not to overflow iron. Close lid; bake until no steam emerges from waffle iron, 3 to 5 minutes. Place the waffle on serving plate. Serve with the topping of choice.

Sourdough Pancakes

1 teaspoon salt

1 teaspoon soda

3 Tablespoons cooking oil

1 Tablespoon sugar

1 egg

2 cups sourdough start

In a medium bowl: Add start, salt,sugar, & egg mix well. Next add cooking oil and mix well. Then fold in soda. Pancake dough will start to foam and rise. Now you are ready to start cooking

Sourdough Cinnamon Rolls

1 Cup Sourdough Starter

4 Tablespoons Melted Lard (or Oil)

1 teaspoon Baking Soda

8 Cups Flour (approximately)

2 1/2 Cups Warm Water

1 Tablespoon Salt

2/3 Cup Sugar

Cinnamon Filling:

1/2 cup melted butter or margarine ( to brush on dough).

2 cups light brown sugar

2 Tablespoons cinnamon

1/4 Tablespoon cloves

2 cups finely chopped nuts ( walnuts or pecans )

2 cups raisen if desired

Frosting:

2 cups powdered sugar

water (enough to make smooth)

1 teaspoon vanilla

Mix all ingrediants together

Combine starter, all the water, all the sugar, and 3 cups of flour the night before. Cover in warm, draft free place. (note I like to cover with a piece of plastic wrap "Glad Wrap" over night).

The next morning add other ingredients leaving out 1 cup of flour. Kneed dough until smooth and elastic (note add flour from the last cup as needed to achieve the desired texture). Place Dough into a grease bowl large enough so dough can double in size. Once dough has doubled kneed down, and roll dough out to desired thickness, and cute out your rolls, or you can form the dough into two loaves.

Roll each half into a rectangle (about 15" Long). Brush lightly with melted butter, then sprinkle each rectangular piece of dough with half the cinnamon filling. Make sure to cover all the dough. press the fillinglighly into the dough, then add raisens, and nuts if desired. Then roll un each piece of dough Jelly roll fashion and seal edges. Cut the rolled dough ito 1" slices. Place cut side up on a greased pan. Cover them with plastic wrap and a towel. Let them rise in a warm place until double in size - about 1 1/2 hours.

Bake at 350 degrees for 30 to 35 minutes. Until golden brown. Be sure to keep and eye on them.

Now add the frosting on top while cinnamon rolls are still warm.

Sourdough Cornbread

1 1/2 Cups sourdough starter

2 1/4 Cups yellow corn meal

2 1/4 Cups canned milk

3 Tablespoons sugar

3 eggs (beaten)

6 teaspoons butter (melted)

1 teaspoon baking soda

3/4 teaspoon salt

Mix sourdough, milk, corn meal, sugar, and eggs: stir well. Add melted butter, soda, and salt; Stir until mixed well. Turn mixture into a lighly greased Pan and spread evenly.

Bake at 400 degrees. for 25 - 30 minutes or until corn bread is golden brown.

Serve Hot with honey butter!

Sourdough Rolls/Bread

1 Cup Sourdough Starter

4 Tablespoons Oil

1 teaspoon Baking Soda

8 Cups Flour (approximately)

2 1/2 Cups Warm Water

1 Tablespoon Salt

2/3 Cup Sugar

Combine starter, all the water, all the sugar, and 3 cups of flour the night before. Cover in warm, draft free place. (note I like to cover with a piece of plastic wrap "Glad Wrap" over night). The next morning add other ingredients leaving out 1 cup of flour. Kneed dough until smooth and elastic (note add flour from the last cup as needed to achieve the desired texture). Place Dough into a grease bowl large enough so dough can double in size. Once dough has doubled kneed down, and roll dough out to desired thickness, and cute out your rolls, or you can form the dough into two loaves, Place rolls onto a lightly greased cookie sheet. or if making bread lightly greased bread pans. Cover rolls or bread and let stand until rolls double in size, About 1 1/2 hours, or let bread rise to top of bread pan plus a little.

Now you can bake 375 Degrees , 10 - 15 minutes for rolls; For bread about 1 hour until tops are light brown. Turn out onto cooling racks and cover with a dish cloth and let cool.

From dalepaulg@aol.com

Jan 2003

Sourdough Biscuits using Amish Friendship Starter

I don't have any original recipes to share, but I do have one that is a bit different and, I think, very good. I keep a gallon jar of Amish Friendship Starter going on my kitchen counter. Seems like I always have extra starter. I found a recipe on the web somewhere for "sourdough biscuits" and have been using my Friendship Starter to make them. I think they come out real nice...

Editor's note: the Net has many recipes for the "friendship starter " . Search on Google: http://www.google.com

Sourdough Biscuits :

1 cup starter

1/3 cup vegetable oil

3/4 tsp baking soda

1/4 tsp salt,

1 cup all purpose flour...

Mix dry ingredients in a bowl. In another bowl, mix starter and oil. Stir liquid mixture into dry ingredients and mix well by hand. Drop by tablespoons full onto ungreased baking sheet. Bake at 350 degrees for 10 to 15 minutes. (I have found it takes the full 15 minutes).

Simple recipe that works well... Enjoy...

RECIPE : SOURDOUGH FOR THE BREAD MACHINE

From: The Taylors:oz1@inreach.com

Sept. 2002

Subject: Sourdough Bread

Dear Joan,

I love your sourdough primer! I have a recipe for bread machine sourdough, but if I let the machine do its thing for 1 1/2 hours, I think it is too long. Maybe if I just let it rise once and then do my own kneading and rising, it might work. Otherwise, my dough just doesn't rise the 2nd time.

What do you think? I'm about ready to forget the bread machine, but it does save my aching wrists some.

I wondered about the lengthy final rise in my WelBilt. I really don't think my starter is tired out because it bubbles up so hugely when I feed it. And the first rise after I take the dough out of the breadmachine is excellent, though maybe I let it rise TOO long, as you said, and it DOES poop out then!

We are at 3000 ft. of altitude here in the boonies and baking goods sometimes need adjustments. However, maybe if I stick to the "double in size" rule I might find it is a better idea than overnight like I tend to do.

And yes, you may certainly put this on your web page, but the recipe isn't mine and I wish I could remember where I got it, darn! My husband and I just love the taste of the bread - even when it doesn't rise properly, so I want to stick with it. I will enjoy any comments from your readers.

Thanks so much for all your advice, Joan!

Yours with gratitude,

Peg Taylor

Editor's Comment. I agreed with her in that she should prepare the dough in the machine and let is rise fully in the pans and then bake it. Also her dough cycle takes an hour and a half. My machine for instance, only take 60 minutes for the dough cycle to complete.

Update:

Dear Joan,

Well, I tried it and tried it to no avail. Just as I had decided to throw out my starter and "start" again, I thought I would do one more batch. Actually, yesterday I got a call for help from a neighbor so I let the dough rise in the oven until this A.M. That's 24 hours! So I looked at the dough, wrapped in wet towels encased in plastic over my baguette pan, and behold! the little things had risen! Now I am in proud possession of two mini-loaves of sour dough heavenly smelling bread.

I think I have it figured: I need more rising time! Is it because we live at 3000 ft.? I don't have any trouble with cakes, though. I am mystified, but happy. What do you think?

Sincerely,

Peg Taylor

Editor's note: appreciate reader's comments on making/baking sourdough at high altitude baking:

San Francisco Sourdough Bread for Bread Machine

Makes 1 large loaf.

1 cup sourdough starter, room temperature

3/4 cup lukewarm water (110 degrees F.)

2 teaspoons salt

1/4 teaspoon baking soda

3 cups bread flour or unbleached all-purpose flour

Cornmeal

Add all the ingredients except cornmeal in the bread pan of bread machine.

Process according to manufacturer's instructions for a dough setting. NOTE:

Don't be afraid to open the lid and check the dough. It should form a nice elastic ball. *When the bread machine has completed the dough cycle, remove the dough from the pan to a lightly oiled surface. Knead the dough several times and form the dough into an oval; cover with plastic wrap and let rest for 10 minutes.

After resting, knead dough on a lightly floured board.

Place the dough in a lightly oiled large bowl. Place a damp towel over the bowl and then cover with plastic wrap (the humidity in the bowl helps in the rising process). Let rise until it doubles in volume (when you can put your finger in the dough and it leaves and indentation and doesn't spring back out) approximately 4 to 8 hours (depending on the temperature and the starter used, the rising time can vary as much as 12 hours).

After dough has risen, remove from bowl, and place on a lightly floured board. Knead in flour to feed it one more time before baking. Shape dough into a loaf shape and place on a jelly roll pan or cookie sheet that is dusted with cornmeal. Cover with plastic wrap and place in a warm spot to rise until doubled in size, approximately 1 to 3 hours.

Preheat oven to 400 degrees. After rising, slash the bread with a bread razor or a very sharp knife making three 1/2-inch deep diagonal slashes. Brush or spray the top of the bread with cold water and bake for 20 to 25 minutes or until nicely browned. Remove from oven and place the bread on a wire rack to cool. Let baked loaf cool for 30 minutes before cutting (this is because the bread is still cooking while it is cooling) *And here is my concern: Should I let the final rise in the B/M happen? Or should I skip the final rise in the recipe? Or what? I simply can't get the last rise to happen. The bread dough just spreads out flat! This last time, I re-kneaded the poor flat dough one more time and let it rise forever and I have a flat concrete loaf. Sigh...

My machine is a WelBilt and takes 1 1/2 hours to complete the dough cycle:

1st knead 5 min.

1st rise 5 min.

2nd knead 20 min.

Final rise 60 min.

RECIPES:

From Bob Hurt:

Subject: Jugito's Sourdough Banana-Date-Nut Bread

Copyright © by Bob Hurt 7/19/2002, All Rights Reserved.

More at Jugito@Jugito.com

I would like to say that this recipe has been in my family for generation, for it makes unbelievably light, crunchy,delicious bread. It had never seen the light of day till I decided to make it instead of tossing out some overripe bananas. After several months of messing with sourdough starter and various kinds of breads, I felt that I had the technique of making a good loaf with a pleasing taste and texture. I instituted variations in the process that have to do with starter batter and yeast.

I often do not want to wait all day or overnight to let sourdough loaves rise, but at the same time, I enjoyed the sumptuous tartness of good sourdough bread. So, I decided to add double or triple the amount of sourdough starter most recipes call for. I reasoned that since the starter was already sour, it would impart sufficient tartness, and then I could add a little yeast for faster rising. But since Banana nut bread is not supposed to be tart (is it?) like sourdough bread is, I thought I would only put a cup of starter into the dough, and balance it with a teaspoon of yeast for quicker rising. When you use yeast, recipes usually suggest you mix it with warm water and sugar or honey to make it foam up before adding it to the dough. I decided that it was better to give the dough a longer rise time to assist a little of the sourdough flavor by not foaming it before adding it. The result was a magnificent-tasting Banana-Date-Nut bread, for which I give you the following recipe. My wife Maria, usually conscious of her calories, devoured half a loaf by herself.

The rounded loaf was baked in a metal mixing bowl.

Recipe for Sourdough Banana-Date-Nut Bread

Bob Hurt 7/19/2002

Ingredients:

• 2 cups King Arthur Special unbleached bread flour

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/

• 2 cups King Arthur whole-wheat flour

• 1 rounded teaspoon small grain sea salt

• 1 teaspoon Redstar dry baker's yeast granules http://www.redstaryeast.com/

• 6 tablespoons cold butter

• 1/4 cup vegetable oil

• 1 cup sourdough starter batter (see recipe following this one)

• 3 eggs

• 4 ripe bananas

• 1/4 cup honey

• 1/2 to 3/4 cup walnuts

• 1/2 to 3/4 cup pecans

• 6 fat Medjool Dates http://dejafarms.com/

• 1/4 cup milk

• shallow baking pan of water

Equipment:

• Cuisinart food processor or heavy duty electric mixer with dough hook

• Oven

• 3 medium or two large Bread loaf pans

• 1 quart measuring cup pitcher

• 2-cup bowl

Preparation Time:

• Making dough - 20 minutes

• Rising of dough - 4 to 6 hours

• Baking time - 25 to 45 minutes

Directions:

Lightly oil the bread pans on sides and bottom.

• Lighty oil a counter top, smooth stove top, or other work surface for the dough

• Remove pits from dates and quarter them; put dates and nuts nuts into food processor and chop for a few seconds. Do not over-process - leave them coarse enough to give the bread crunchiness and texture, no larger than the size of pinto beans or a little larger.

• Put bananas into food processor and blend. Gradually add eggs, sourdough starter, honey, then yeast granules and blend till homogenized. Pour into 1-quart pitcher, and set aside. I should contain between 2 and 2 1/2 cups of goo.

• Clean and dry the food processor container

• Put flour, salt, yeast granules into food processor and blend thoroughly for 10 seconds.

• While machine is running, cut butter into small chunks, drop into feed tube one at a time, and run machine till thoroughly mixed in, 30 seconds.

• While machine is running, gradually add the contents of the pitcher through the feed tube as fast as the flower can absorb it. Be careful NOT to pour it onto the bare bottom of the food processor container or you will gum up the blade.

• Process the dough till it converts into a relatively smooth, sticky mass that tends to pull away from the sides of the container, and then for another minute. If the machine bogs down, oil your hands, remove half the dough, and process each half separately. If it is too wet

• If you are using an electric mixer, dump in the chopped date/nut mix and continue processing till they are thoroughly mixed into the dough. Otherwise, turn out the dough onto the oiled surface and knead the chopped date/nut mix into the dough till it is evenly distributed.

• Form the dough into elongated lumps that, when flattened into the pan, are between a third and a half the inside height of the pan, then cover each loaf loosely with a sheet of oiled plastic wrap.

• Set the bread pans in a warm place to rise, but not indirect sunlight. A good place is the oven, with the ovenlight on. The heat from the light will provide abundant warmth. The doughwill rise to more than double the original size, and protrude an inch or more above the topof the pan when it isready, typically in 4 to 6 hours,depending on temperature and humidity. If you let it rise too long,it will tend to collapse. If you don't let it rise enough, it will be too heavy and dense.

• Remove the risen loaves from the oven and preheat the oven to 450 degrees.

• Meanwhile, set the shallow pan of water on the stove and bring it to a boil, then shove it onto the bottom rack of the oven just above the heating element. The water will create steam which will give the bread a hearty crust.

• When the oven is up to temperature, put the pans of loaves on the center rack. After 10 minutes, open the door, brush the tops of the loaves with milk, shut the door, and lower the temperature to 375 degrees. If you leave the temperature too high for too long, you will burn the loaves. If you are using dark pans, they will absorb heat better than light pans, and brown the bread faster. If your oven is hotter in one area (like the back) than another, rearrang